I hope the pictures are clear enough. It was very tough to get a decent photo of the hallmark and I was struggling with the lighting.
Spoon One of Two
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EllicottCity
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:57 am
Spoon One of Two
Many thanks to the resident experts. Here is one of two spoons, the last of the ostensibly Russian silver items found in my late father's collection:
I hope the pictures are clear enough. It was very tough to get a decent photo of the hallmark and I was struggling with the lighting.
I hope the pictures are clear enough. It was very tough to get a decent photo of the hallmark and I was struggling with the lighting.
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi EllicottCity -
the good news first: the spoon is authentic, made by wellknown maker Agafonov, Wasilij Semenov (1895-1917). You have to turn the spoon, often Kokoschnik and maker are opposite struck (upside down). Here on the forum by some disbelieved - but facts are facts!
A spoon from the same maker from my collection - one can clearly see the accordance.
Source: Collection Zolotnik, PL #2273,#2274, p 210
Cleaning nice silver would not hurt!
Regards
Zolotnik
the good news first: the spoon is authentic, made by wellknown maker Agafonov, Wasilij Semenov (1895-1917). You have to turn the spoon, often Kokoschnik and maker are opposite struck (upside down). Here on the forum by some disbelieved - but facts are facts!
A spoon from the same maker from my collection - one can clearly see the accordance.
Source: Collection Zolotnik, PL #2273,#2274, p 210
Cleaning nice silver would not hurt!
Regards
Zolotnik
-
EllicottCity
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:57 am
Re: Spoon One of Two
Great news, thanks Zolotnik. I was afraid to clean it because I know with some antiques they should keep their "patina." But I will go ahead and give these a gentle polishing.
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi ElicottCity -
Patina (ital. Patina "thin layer", "varnish") is a by natural or artificial aging caused surface (texture and color) on wood, leather, bronce etc. but NOT on silver!
Silver oxidized (environmental influences), is stained and should be polished! IDo you want black silver? Silver has to shine to show its beauty!
Regards
Zolotnik
Patina (ital. Patina "thin layer", "varnish") is a by natural or artificial aging caused surface (texture and color) on wood, leather, bronce etc. but NOT on silver!
Silver oxidized (environmental influences), is stained and should be polished! IDo you want black silver? Silver has to shine to show its beauty!
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: Spoon One of Two
Exactly! Patina and silver are enemies. Silver must shine like the full moon on a clear sky! Patina is invented by lazy people who don't want to polish their silver! However, do not mix this "patina" (dirt) with oxidized part on some silver object. This black surface is made by purpose and should not be removed.
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi ElicottCity ,
Patina is not dirt; dirt can be washed away with warm water and soap. Patina is not Tarnish.
You are absolutely right; antiques should keep their patina and silver too.
Please use our search function top right hand corner and enter the word patina. Much has been written about patina, including a lot of baloney. The internet is an open source of information you could try for further information, but always double check. You could buy a good book about collection silver and silver maintenance.
Tarnish develops as a chemical reaction. The most common source is through the air (although direct contact with substances that contain sulfur will also cause tarnish). This is why silver is generally stored in air-restricted spaces. Air-restricted because glass front cabinets and silver chests are not air-tight and even when stored in these places tarnish will still eventually develop, just at a slower pace.
Identify silver tarnish. As far as silver is concerned, tarnish and patina are not the same thing. Patina is a gorgeous, mellow, grey, soft, lustrous finish that well used and cared for silver develops. As silver is a soft metal, every time it’s used it acquires tiny marks. These marks are part of the living finish of silver and should be prized.
New and unused silver has a shiny, mirror bright surface on which patina has not had a chance to develop. Antique and vintage pieces are sometimes mechanically buffed to remove patina marks and restore that mirror shine, called by some; shine like the full moon on a clear sky. This diminishes the appeal of silver as the patina is destroyed and is also responsible for skewing perception of what silver “should” look like.
“Tragically, a large amount of 18th century silverware have had their definition severely impaired by overzealous butlers and cleaners who used abrasive cleaning agents in the attempt to keep the silver sparkling.”
In contrast tarnish is best understood as a dull film over the metal. Tarnish ranges in color from a yellowy-gold to absolute black, depending on how long it has been allowed to develop. It does not necessarily coat the surface of a piece evenly.
How long tarnish has developed on a piece of silver determines how easy it is to remove. At the mildest end, when it’s still in the dull-gold phase, a simple wipe with a clean cloth will do. More serious cases require the actual application of polish.
Oel.
Patina is not dirt; dirt can be washed away with warm water and soap. Patina is not Tarnish.
You are absolutely right; antiques should keep their patina and silver too.
Please use our search function top right hand corner and enter the word patina. Much has been written about patina, including a lot of baloney. The internet is an open source of information you could try for further information, but always double check. You could buy a good book about collection silver and silver maintenance.
Tarnish develops as a chemical reaction. The most common source is through the air (although direct contact with substances that contain sulfur will also cause tarnish). This is why silver is generally stored in air-restricted spaces. Air-restricted because glass front cabinets and silver chests are not air-tight and even when stored in these places tarnish will still eventually develop, just at a slower pace.
Identify silver tarnish. As far as silver is concerned, tarnish and patina are not the same thing. Patina is a gorgeous, mellow, grey, soft, lustrous finish that well used and cared for silver develops. As silver is a soft metal, every time it’s used it acquires tiny marks. These marks are part of the living finish of silver and should be prized.
New and unused silver has a shiny, mirror bright surface on which patina has not had a chance to develop. Antique and vintage pieces are sometimes mechanically buffed to remove patina marks and restore that mirror shine, called by some; shine like the full moon on a clear sky. This diminishes the appeal of silver as the patina is destroyed and is also responsible for skewing perception of what silver “should” look like.
“Tragically, a large amount of 18th century silverware have had their definition severely impaired by overzealous butlers and cleaners who used abrasive cleaning agents in the attempt to keep the silver sparkling.”
In contrast tarnish is best understood as a dull film over the metal. Tarnish ranges in color from a yellowy-gold to absolute black, depending on how long it has been allowed to develop. It does not necessarily coat the surface of a piece evenly.
How long tarnish has developed on a piece of silver determines how easy it is to remove. At the mildest end, when it’s still in the dull-gold phase, a simple wipe with a clean cloth will do. More serious cases require the actual application of polish.
Oel.
Re: Spoon One of Two
This is a question of matter of opinion. It has been discussed before. Unfortunately Oel and do not share the same opinion of what patina is. I still stick to mine. Silver must shine! What we today call "patina" is more or less a modern "conception/invention". When the objects was made years and years ago nobody at that time expected it to be "patinated" or whatever you might call it. I don't think that they even new such a word as "patina".
The servants down stairs continuously polished the silver in the house to shine and removed every stain on it because silver was meant to shine. The silver's "shine" or actually its extreme capability to reflect light is the whole idea with a silver object, not its "patina". Do not for a second think that somebody at that time looked at a tarnished silver object thinking that "Oh what a beautiful patina it has got!!" and left it unpolished expecting the "patina" to be even better by time. That is a ridiculous thought! No, instead he/she thought that again i have to polish this tarnished "dirty" object to shine....
By the way, by writing "dirt" is was a badly chosen word. With "dirt" I meant that the object has got a non-desired coating that should be removed in order to restore its original former luster as the maker in those days designed it to have.
However, the polishing should be done soft handed and carefully not using heavy tools or "sandpaper/steel wool or similar".... Doing so the shine will have a good old luster without any "patina"...
Not quite the same but close enough: Is a rusty iron object "patinated" I may ask? Not to talk about copper or brass. Wasn't it meant to shine too when it was made or was it meant to be patinated and stained when time passed?
Regarding silver forget you ever heard the word "patina"!
The servants down stairs continuously polished the silver in the house to shine and removed every stain on it because silver was meant to shine. The silver's "shine" or actually its extreme capability to reflect light is the whole idea with a silver object, not its "patina". Do not for a second think that somebody at that time looked at a tarnished silver object thinking that "Oh what a beautiful patina it has got!!" and left it unpolished expecting the "patina" to be even better by time. That is a ridiculous thought! No, instead he/she thought that again i have to polish this tarnished "dirty" object to shine....
By the way, by writing "dirt" is was a badly chosen word. With "dirt" I meant that the object has got a non-desired coating that should be removed in order to restore its original former luster as the maker in those days designed it to have.
However, the polishing should be done soft handed and carefully not using heavy tools or "sandpaper/steel wool or similar".... Doing so the shine will have a good old luster without any "patina"...
Not quite the same but close enough: Is a rusty iron object "patinated" I may ask? Not to talk about copper or brass. Wasn't it meant to shine too when it was made or was it meant to be patinated and stained when time passed?
Regarding silver forget you ever heard the word "patina"!
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi Qrt.S,
I addressed the original OP, by now we know your opinion which is not shared by many others including silver/antique experts. I will not respond to your arguments perhaps only with; baloney!
Yes, if we should read we could understand the difference between Patina and Tarnish, to be or not to be. Antiquities, including silver are all about patina not tarnish!
Oel.
I addressed the original OP, by now we know your opinion which is not shared by many others including silver/antique experts. I will not respond to your arguments perhaps only with; baloney!
Yes, if we should read we could understand the difference between Patina and Tarnish, to be or not to be. Antiquities, including silver are all about patina not tarnish!
Oel.
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi -
The centuries-old fascination of silver assuredly exists because of the splendor, luster and elegance of a skillful design / pattern. Dull and from daily use misstreated and uncared silver with traces of "battel scars"and mottled or stained surface is ugly - but corresponds to the Anglo-American common and strongly favored idea of "patina".
It is a matter of taste what the individual person prefers. To each his own!
Silve as it should look
with patina
with super patina
I imagine to have breakfast with this coffee spoons.....
Regards
Zolotnik
The centuries-old fascination of silver assuredly exists because of the splendor, luster and elegance of a skillful design / pattern. Dull and from daily use misstreated and uncared silver with traces of "battel scars"and mottled or stained surface is ugly - but corresponds to the Anglo-American common and strongly favored idea of "patina".
It is a matter of taste what the individual person prefers. To each his own!
Silve as it should look
with patina
with super patina
I imagine to have breakfast with this coffee spoons.....
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi oel -
with all respect - I really do not know how a from the international silver experts accepted (for example) silver spoon with patina looks like. Maybe a meaningful photo could help.
Regards
Zolotnik
with all respect - I really do not know how a from the international silver experts accepted (for example) silver spoon with patina looks like. Maybe a meaningful photo could help.
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi Zolotnik,
Again tarnish or patina, to be or not to be seems to be a difficult question.
With all due respect what you call patina, I call tarnish please read again: How long tarnish has developed on a piece of silver determines how easy it is to remove. At the mildest end, when it’s still in the dull-gold phase, a simple wipe with a clean cloth will do. More serious cases require the actual application of polish.
Your first image, as silver should look like; if done right will result in a fine patina or a gorgeous, mellow, grey, soft, lustrous finish that well used and cared for silver develops. If tarnish is removed regularly with water, soap & cloth you do not need to use silver- polish.
Your 2nd image is not with patina but with a heavy tarnish but not too bad, still I could do the trick with water, soap and the silver cloth, no silver polish needed.
Your 3th image not with super patina but super tarnished, need to be cleaned and be silver polished, but not over polished.
What some experts say; black tarnish protects the silver, proves a certain age and can be removed professionally. Yes, black tarnish should be removed. Patina a gorgeous, mellow, grey, soft, lustrous finish that well used and cared for silver develops should never be removed. However it is a matter of taste what the individual person prefers, yes you could let silver shine like a full moon in a blue sky.
I have a few 18th century silver pieces; only use the silver cloth to remove the tarnish (I noticed the oldies take a longer time to develop tarnish compared to 20th century silver) and if we put the 18th century piece next to a 20th century piece the appearance of the silver differs. I am not home be could try to capture an image later next week, if possible to show patina on an image.
Regards,
Oel.
Again tarnish or patina, to be or not to be seems to be a difficult question.
With all due respect what you call patina, I call tarnish please read again: How long tarnish has developed on a piece of silver determines how easy it is to remove. At the mildest end, when it’s still in the dull-gold phase, a simple wipe with a clean cloth will do. More serious cases require the actual application of polish.
Your first image, as silver should look like; if done right will result in a fine patina or a gorgeous, mellow, grey, soft, lustrous finish that well used and cared for silver develops. If tarnish is removed regularly with water, soap & cloth you do not need to use silver- polish.
Your 2nd image is not with patina but with a heavy tarnish but not too bad, still I could do the trick with water, soap and the silver cloth, no silver polish needed.
Your 3th image not with super patina but super tarnished, need to be cleaned and be silver polished, but not over polished.
What some experts say; black tarnish protects the silver, proves a certain age and can be removed professionally. Yes, black tarnish should be removed. Patina a gorgeous, mellow, grey, soft, lustrous finish that well used and cared for silver develops should never be removed. However it is a matter of taste what the individual person prefers, yes you could let silver shine like a full moon in a blue sky.
I have a few 18th century silver pieces; only use the silver cloth to remove the tarnish (I noticed the oldies take a longer time to develop tarnish compared to 20th century silver) and if we put the 18th century piece next to a 20th century piece the appearance of the silver differs. I am not home be could try to capture an image later next week, if possible to show patina on an image.
Regards,
Oel.
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi oel -
first of all thank you very much for your well-intentioned statement for the word "patina"- I really do not want to start a fight over the definition of oxydation, pollution, tarnish or patina! I just be amused about the in my eyes meaningless word "patina" in connection with silver. If the customers in all the centuries would have prefered a "gorgeous mellow grey" instead of a bright luster on their silver - the makers had reacted at once. The contrary was the case.
In my opinion only the unrestrained marketing of antiques with their short synthetic formulas create such senseless terms. We know and use a lot of this kind of words from other branches without thinking very much over the true meaning. Waste disposal Park etc - you know them all.....
The biggest enemies for my silver are the kitchen fumes and the central heating - a not to win fight against the patina, tarnish, etc., or whatever we call the ugly discoloration.They find every cupboard, drawer or secret vault. I promise if I ever get too lazy to polish (clean) my silver I will call the discoloration as "patina", highly estimated by international antique experts.
Regards
Zolotnik
first of all thank you very much for your well-intentioned statement for the word "patina"- I really do not want to start a fight over the definition of oxydation, pollution, tarnish or patina! I just be amused about the in my eyes meaningless word "patina" in connection with silver. If the customers in all the centuries would have prefered a "gorgeous mellow grey" instead of a bright luster on their silver - the makers had reacted at once. The contrary was the case.
In my opinion only the unrestrained marketing of antiques with their short synthetic formulas create such senseless terms. We know and use a lot of this kind of words from other branches without thinking very much over the true meaning. Waste disposal Park etc - you know them all.....
The biggest enemies for my silver are the kitchen fumes and the central heating - a not to win fight against the patina, tarnish, etc., or whatever we call the ugly discoloration.They find every cupboard, drawer or secret vault. I promise if I ever get too lazy to polish (clean) my silver I will call the discoloration as "patina", highly estimated by international antique experts.
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi Zolotnik,
Sorry Zolotnik , you have to continue to remove the tarnish off your silver, no excuses. Tarnish is not patina and good silver care ultimately creates nice patina.
Between you and me, it took me several years of watching on the Road Antique shows and listening to the silver experts, museum visits to look at old silver before I understood the meaning of silver patina. You write; if the customers in all the centuries would have preferred a "gorgeous mellow grey" instead of a bright luster on their silver - the makers had reacted at once. But the makers cannot because patina develops over a period of time. All silver object once started brand new in shinning bright luster. Even this one:
A ROMAN SILVER PHALLIC AMULETT, a very realistic work, complete with the hanging loop with black silver patina, Trier, 3rd century, length: 3.5 cm.
Hands off, no rubbing or polishing and we discuss patina not size.
Regards,
Oel.
Sorry Zolotnik , you have to continue to remove the tarnish off your silver, no excuses. Tarnish is not patina and good silver care ultimately creates nice patina.
Between you and me, it took me several years of watching on the Road Antique shows and listening to the silver experts, museum visits to look at old silver before I understood the meaning of silver patina. You write; if the customers in all the centuries would have preferred a "gorgeous mellow grey" instead of a bright luster on their silver - the makers had reacted at once. But the makers cannot because patina develops over a period of time. All silver object once started brand new in shinning bright luster. Even this one:
A ROMAN SILVER PHALLIC AMULETT, a very realistic work, complete with the hanging loop with black silver patina, Trier, 3rd century, length: 3.5 cm.
Hands off, no rubbing or polishing and we discuss patina not size.
Regards,
Oel.
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi oel -
after we finally arrived under the waistline - the fakers use urine (one week soaking is the normal length of stay) to get the patina - something what the ancestors or the former silversmiths have known as well - so much to the time problem - but there was no demand (not jet...).
Anyways - I thank you for your time to persuade me of the benefits of patina - it seems that until today I have not found the right contemplation.
You really did your best - but against mulishness....
Regards
Zolotnik
after we finally arrived under the waistline - the fakers use urine (one week soaking is the normal length of stay) to get the patina - something what the ancestors or the former silversmiths have known as well - so much to the time problem - but there was no demand (not jet...).
Anyways - I thank you for your time to persuade me of the benefits of patina - it seems that until today I have not found the right contemplation.
You really did your best - but against mulishness....
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi both Oel and Zolotnik,
Very interesting discussion indeed, thanks for that. The result is, however, that the definition of the words "patina" and tarnish and their difference remains still a line in the water being as well what I stated in the beginning; a matter of opinion only. Anyway, I still don't think that the maker thought that his made objects would be "patinated" by time but that they would be polished and shiny as long as they existed. Talking about experts. An "expert" is a self made title. It is a person with an opinion.
About the phallic amulet. Nonsense I would say. I don't think that the maker meant it to be that dull. It was meant to shine! But today the "experts" say that one should not "restore" antiques objects irrespective of how they look like after being "untouched" for hundreds of years. I'm not so sure about that, but it is anyway another story... In addition, there are many kind of "experts" with opinions and big mistakes have been made them...there is a saying: sometimes one dilettante knows more than ten experts...the best is usually to use common sense.... better to polish...!
I'm in the middle of a blizzard but have a nice Sunday anyway both of you.
Qrt.S
Very interesting discussion indeed, thanks for that. The result is, however, that the definition of the words "patina" and tarnish and their difference remains still a line in the water being as well what I stated in the beginning; a matter of opinion only. Anyway, I still don't think that the maker thought that his made objects would be "patinated" by time but that they would be polished and shiny as long as they existed. Talking about experts. An "expert" is a self made title. It is a person with an opinion.
About the phallic amulet. Nonsense I would say. I don't think that the maker meant it to be that dull. It was meant to shine! But today the "experts" say that one should not "restore" antiques objects irrespective of how they look like after being "untouched" for hundreds of years. I'm not so sure about that, but it is anyway another story... In addition, there are many kind of "experts" with opinions and big mistakes have been made them...there is a saying: sometimes one dilettante knows more than ten experts...the best is usually to use common sense.... better to polish...!
I'm in the middle of a blizzard but have a nice Sunday anyway both of you.
Qrt.S
-
EllicottCity
- Posts: 13
- Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:57 am
Re: Spoon One of Two
I also enjoyed the lively discussion that ensued following my use of the “p” word. After reading the exchanges, I do have an opinion on the question (which does not make me an expert: all experts have opinions but not all who have opinions are experts).
It seems to me that “tarnish” is the layer of chemically oxidized silver that forms by reaction with sulfur. Whereas “patina” is the micro-abrasions that are formed mechanically by handling and use of the silver.
But if you accept those definitions, then there is no physical difference between tarnish and “oxidation.” Oxidation, as that term seems to be used, is just “good” or “desirable” or “intended” tarnish, but it is the same chemically.
There is also the point that polishing silver is part of its normal use, and necessarily contributes to the “patina” (as defined above) to some degree. If your polish is not so abrasive and your force is not so great, then the impact on “patina” is minimized (but you might not remove all the tarnish). If you can remove tarnish without removing patina then perhaps it could be said you are “cleaning”, whereas if you polish such that the silver looks brand new, then presumably you are “renovating.” Furthermore, to make silver look like new, I assume it is not enough just to use a more abrasive polish. If that were my goal I would want to use several progressively finer polishes, like when you wet sand an automotive paint finish.
I have not yet polished my spoons, but when I do I doubt that I will be able to make them look new even if I wished to. Instead, I will strive for “nice and shiny,” admittedly a layman’s term.
It seems to me that “tarnish” is the layer of chemically oxidized silver that forms by reaction with sulfur. Whereas “patina” is the micro-abrasions that are formed mechanically by handling and use of the silver.
But if you accept those definitions, then there is no physical difference between tarnish and “oxidation.” Oxidation, as that term seems to be used, is just “good” or “desirable” or “intended” tarnish, but it is the same chemically.
There is also the point that polishing silver is part of its normal use, and necessarily contributes to the “patina” (as defined above) to some degree. If your polish is not so abrasive and your force is not so great, then the impact on “patina” is minimized (but you might not remove all the tarnish). If you can remove tarnish without removing patina then perhaps it could be said you are “cleaning”, whereas if you polish such that the silver looks brand new, then presumably you are “renovating.” Furthermore, to make silver look like new, I assume it is not enough just to use a more abrasive polish. If that were my goal I would want to use several progressively finer polishes, like when you wet sand an automotive paint finish.
I have not yet polished my spoons, but when I do I doubt that I will be able to make them look new even if I wished to. Instead, I will strive for “nice and shiny,” admittedly a layman’s term.
Re: Spoon One of Two
Hi ElliotColtt,
Your Russian spoons are not made today but nearly 100 years old and may show some age.
Yes, tarnish has to be removed; you could use a little liquid silver polish to remove the tarnish. I only use liquid silver polish once and only if needed. Every 3-4 moths I use an impregnated silver cloth to remove the newly develop tarnish with great results, nice and shiny.
Enjoy your silver, take good care and create some nice 'p' !
Oel.
http://www.hintsandthings.co.uk/utilityroom/silver.htm
Your Russian spoons are not made today but nearly 100 years old and may show some age.
Yes, tarnish has to be removed; you could use a little liquid silver polish to remove the tarnish. I only use liquid silver polish once and only if needed. Every 3-4 moths I use an impregnated silver cloth to remove the newly develop tarnish with great results, nice and shiny.
Enjoy your silver, take good care and create some nice 'p' !
Oel.
http://www.hintsandthings.co.uk/utilityroom/silver.htm