Arms identification request on Dognose fork

[SilverK]

I would be grateful if someone could identify these very clear arms for this dognose fork, made by Henry Aubin and assayed in London, 1709. I believe they are contemporaneous with the fork. I've had it for some years, but I've never been able to make any real progress on it. My research suggests that Henri was from Jersey (and presumably descended from a French family), born in 1676 and was active from 1700. If you have any other information on him as well, that would also be very useful! Many thanks in advance.

[SilverK]

I should have said that I have Grimwade's biography of him from London Goldsmiths 1697-1837.

[dognose]

Hi SilverK,

An update to Grimwade is available here: http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... bin#p96110

Trev.

[SilverK]

Thanks Trev. This is new information to me, so it's very helpful.

Are you aware that a Henry Aubin was a juror at the Old Bailey on 26th Feb 1724 and on 5th July 1832? No mention of profession, so may or not be Henry Aubin, the silversmith.

Have you also seen the article at: http://www.jerseyheritage.org/media/PDFs/silver.pdf ?This is very relevant to Henry and to the production of forks in Jersey.

[dognose]

Hi SilverK,

Thanks for the extra information. The link you provided does not seem to be working, do you have another?

Trev.

[SilverK]

Ah! Looks like the authors have cleaned up and extended the information since I noted down the link. Searching for the same content, I've found it's now at the following. The first refers to Henry Aubin:

http://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/ ... ver_making

and the second talks, amongst other items, about forks and their rarity at that time:

http://www.theislandwiki.org/index.php/Secular_silver.

I suspect you will be aware of these sites already.

I'm still hoping that someone will be able to cast some light onto the arms.

[Granmaa]

I'm certainly no expert on heraldry, but I think it might be German.
It seems to be a fess between three mullets of six points Or for the Wenns family: http://www.ellipsis.cx/~liana/heraldry/ ... nwenns.jpg

Let us know if you find out anything else.
Miles

[SilverK]

Hi Miles,

Well, it has many similarities, I have to say! However, looking at the two pictures, the shields are different shapes and the Wenns arms has a star above the helmet when mine does not. Whilst I can imagine that some Wenn variations could be without a star, I would have thought in my ignorance of heraldry, that the shield shape would remain unchanged. Also, I would be very surprised if this London-assayed fork carried German arms. Maybe someone can say whether this was common at the beginning of the 18th century? I've looked to see whether there are any von Wenns or Wenns in the General Armory who made it to the UK, but I can't find any. I've even looked up 'Venn' taking into account the German accent, but nothing relevant there, either. Where did you get the picture from?

So those are my thoughts; but I'm very happy to be proven wrong if it solves the puzzle!

Thanks very much for doing this, Miles.

[DianaGaleM]

The shape of the shield is a matter of the artist's taste as is the shape and extent of the mantling, so the differences here are not obstacles. This will be true, for example, when the same arms are part of a circular seal, a ring, or engraved on various articles or in paintings or tapestries. Lots of flexibility here. The color of the mantling should be the primary metal of the shield lined with the primary paint of the shield, but it's elaboration is left to the artist.

In terms of the shield, the elements are the same on both your fork and the rendering of the V. Wenn arms:

a fess between three mullets of six pierced

The big question is whether the colors are the same on the both. We know the colors for the V. Wenn arms from the rendering, but not on your engraved fork. When there's no color in the object or rendering, "hatching" signifies the color.

In your fork, the dots in the fess signify Or (gold or yellow). The hatching on the background of the shield appears to have mostly worn away, but to possibly have been vertical lines. If so, it stands for Gules (Red). Blank areas signify Argent (Silver/White). So, the blazon for the fork would read:

Gules, a fess Or between three mullets pierced Argent.

For the background of the shield to have been Azure, the hatching would have to be horizontal lines. The background of the shield cannot have been blank -- you cannot have metal on metal (Or on Argent or Argent on Argent).

As for the helmet, in general, only nobility can have an open or barred visor. Those of lesser station must have a closed visor.

Because the two sets of arms appear to be of different colors, despite the similarity of elements, it isn't surprising the crests are different as well.

Once you get the blazon right, you can do a Google search on variations of it. In this case, I turned up what looks like a good hit:

"Gu. a fess Or betw. three mullets Arg. Joan de Pordone, E."

I don't know what the "E." abbreviation means, though possibly, "extinct."

Check p. 775 in Volume 2 of "An Alphabetical Dictionary of Coats of Arms Belonging to Families in Great Britian and Ireland" (John Woody Papworth, 1874), online at books.google.com. If the shield color isn't red, you can check other similars arms listed in the same section.

Definitely an interesting fork!!

[DianaGaleM]

Oops, checking on her identity, she appears too early. But as I mentioned, check the other nearby blazons on the same page. One of them may be the correct one.

[DianaGaleM]

Perhaps you can see the hatchings better than we can. Here they are in case they help:

Blank = Argent (Silver or White)
Horizontal Lines = Azure (Blue)
Vertical Lines = Gules (Red)
Dots = Or (Gold or Yellow)
Veritical Dots and Dashes = Orange
Diagonal Lines sloping down left to right = Purpure (Purple)
Diagonal Lines sloping up left to right = Vert (Green)
Crosshatch (lines vertical and horizontal) = Sable (Black)

[SilverK]

Hi DianeGale M,

Well that is so helpful, thanks! You've gone into great detail. With a loupe I can confirm that the hatchings are vertical lines, which means that it is indeed "Gu. a fess Or betw. three mullets Arg." and does not belong to Wenns. I can't find anything on Joan de Pordone. Checking Papworth, as you advised, and searching on google, again I can't find anything close enough. So. whilst your help has moved me forward greatly in my understanding and allowed me to remove Wenns from the possibilities, I still don't know who's arms these were.

At the risk of stretching your help further, if you have any further suggestions, I would be very grateful!

[DianaGaleM]

There is something that puzzles me. There is a wreath (torse) resting on the helmet, as it should be, but there is no crest on the wreath. I don't know what that means. A crest would presumably be helpful in identifying the armiger.

[DianaGaleM]

David Appleton, a heraldry expert, was kind enough to examine this set of arms for us.
http://blog.appletonstudios.com/

He says that while it's a little unusual to show a torse without a crest, it's not unheard of. After consulting several pertinent resources, he further tells us...

"I have not been able to find a really good candidate as the owner of the arms on this fork. The style of the 'mullets of six points pierced' is more often found on Continental arms than in English or Scottish arms. The lack of a crest, of course, means we are missing a big clue to the armiger. However, the use of a barred helm affronty is seen more often in Germany than in England, where it is generally restricted to the Royal family, and more often in Germany than in France or the Low Countries."

So, I'm afraid we are still left wondering...

[SilverK]

I had no idea you were still puzzling over this and so I was really surprised that you had taken the research even further. I'm so grateful that both you and Mr Appleton have spent your valuable time on my fork.

Is there a clue in where and when the fork was assayed, i.e. in London in 1709?

[SilverK]

I thought I would provide a picture of the whole fork: