Russian object

[AG2012]

Hi,
Have found one of ``Butterkaenchen``. (Different from the original post but not off topic, I hope).
Have you ever seen old ivory, bone, antler deteriorated by moisture, exposed to elements, or eaten by woodworms or whatever pest likes this?
Most probably lathe shaped from an old piece, but what material is the handle made of? I doubt it`s ivory as described by the seller.
Cheers

[Goldstein]

Hi AG2012 -
synthetic ivory is no problem! See http://dingler.culture.hu-berlin.de/art ... i278mi01_1
Here the base material, also mammoth available...


What surprised me the most: I am collecting Russian silver since over 30 years - but I never found a single object from Sohlman - they are really rare.
And since 3 years the always same objects show up - brandnew - top quality - often with scintillating background stories but poor marks and always with the same assay master. Must be a big coincident...

Goldstein

[Nickleby]

Poor is he who thinks evil!

well, Goldstein, you here show us three pictures, two of them identical, all three depicting one and the same object. A small handled silver pan with lid, St. Petersburg 1873, by Gustav Alexander Sohlmann.

It was offered at auction (Fischer - Heilbronn/Germany) in Dec 1st 2007 and remained unsold.
(the slightly out of focus picture)

It went again into auction (Scheublein, Munich) in March 2016.
(photos 1 & 3)

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )


As to your grandmothers worldly wisdom:
Horses in the wild expose themselves to great danger when they go down to a watering hole. Thus, natural instinct will have a nervous horse thinking twice before drinking. Even the slightest noise can put them off.


Nickleby

[Goldstein]

Hi Nickleby -
It is not my intention to attack you in any way!
We have heard your story of the silver, as far as you know it or as far as it has been handed down to you.
But the silver tells its own story - independent from the lore. About the authenticity I have already expressed my doubts.
Next is the engraving: Pfingsten (engl. Pentecost)
Pentecost is the third large main festival in the Christian calendar. Here the descent of the Holy Spirit is celebrated on the disciples of Christ after his ascension. Pentecost is considered the date of formation of the Catholic Church and then terminates the paschal time of joy. An important date for a Christian! Much more important than a wedding...
For a wedding gift you would expect the exact date of the wedding - day, month, year - not the note on a particular time of year in the Christian calendar.
So it is common in any case of all the engraved wedding gifts I have ever seen. Even wedding rings bear the exact date - not "Easter" or "Christmas"...
At this time coffee services were very commonly used by those who could afford them - it was something very special - most clearly seen in the traces of use.
About the immaculate condition of an object 142 years old we also have discussed - and this after a Revolution (Russia), Freedom Fight (Estonia) and 2 World Wars (Europe) with devastating bombing, nearly total destruction, heavy looting and exchange of "worthless" items for food after the war..
A very, very small chance that it survived unharmed without dents or scratches.
Why do you think that certain objects did not sell several times in auctions? Do the potential buyers know more than the "honest" and "expert" auction houses? Do you know that there is a worldwide "fake industry" making billions?

All that comes to my mind when I see these objects - hear the story - see what I see and compare with what I know/learned in decades.

Goldstein

[Serg1975]

Hello! I want to join in the discussion.
First, I wanted to thank all the participants for the discussion.
Indeed, there are quite reasonable points of view on the subject.
Fears and suspicions are fully justified.
But new information is constantly appearing, perhaps someone will be able to
change or adjust their views.
I found one lot with this master, and later I will show my subject with a similar hallmarks.

"A parcel-gilt silver tea and coffee service maker's mark Nicholls & Plincke, wiht the wor(k?)smaster's marks of
Jonus Auvin, Anders Long and Gustav Sohlman, St Petersburg, circa 1878-1879"
The lot was sold on June 1, 2015 at one of the auctions. There are no hallmarks.
The state and appearance of the service you see in the photo - it's excellent, mint.




I believe that Sohlman performed the main part of the service (5 items -teapot, a coffee pot, a sugar bowl, a cream jug, and swing-handled oval cake-basket), because he alone was by that time (1878-1879) an active master. The tray and small accessories belong to other, earlier masters (Auvin, Long).
General gilding was carried out either by workmasters of Nicholls & Plincke, or most likely also by Sohlman.
Unfortunately, there are no hallmarks, only guesses.

[Serg1975]

The second. I will join the opinion of the dad & Nickleby
A teapot huszas76 is not a fake. Hallmarks are normal.

This is the subject of the same period.
Almost completely lost gilding inside, one barely perceptible blow - a dent.




The version that this is a subject of the Soviet era, converted into a pan-Slavic style, I consider untenable, because I do not know a few Soviet items weighing more than 800 grams, which were freely available to consumers.
Regards, Sergey.

[Goldstein]

Hi Serg1975 -

I believe that I do not have to point out the frequent counterfeits of Russian silver. Everyone who seriously engages with it knows the dangers and the ever-improving manufacturing methods. We all know that these copies are industrially produced in ever-improving quality. India and China stand out particularly. Sometimes the counterfeits can only be recognized in small details, the wrong style, the marks, the quality and the flawless condition after more than 150 years. Great experience is required - comparisons should be available!
To remind - the object discussed from 1874:



Have a close look at the marks - red arrow - corect mark!
The from member Dad shown marks - correct and fakemarks:

A similar object from 1894 - 20 years later - still up to date or was the object from 1874 20 years to early on the market? Faker´s mistake?



Please compare the marks on the different objects! And compare them with the from you shown marks! There is no plausible reason to punch such ugly marks - unless you have something to hide!
In addition, it is very advisable to observe the international trade - if the same objects appear around the world at the same time, made by the same silversmiths - then one should start slowly to think and count one and one together!
Just my asides after 40 years of collecting Russian silver...

Regards
Goldstein

[Serg1975]

Hi, Goldstein!
All the hallmarks shown by the Dad are real and not fake.
Hallmarks with a notch (serif) that you have highlighted in red - since 1882.
http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_assay_variations.html

And a new hallmark in the directory of the Forum - ПК - Pavel Kostychev (1873-1876).
In the Postnikova-Loseva handbook (№ 1185, 1186), there is an unknown assay master.
Without a notch.

http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_assay_02.html
Regards, Sergey.

[Aguest]

There is a tradition of woolly mammoth Ivory boxes from Kholmogory Siberia Russia. I wonder if you have any of these boxes in your collection, could you perhaps comment on these boxes? These boxes were intricately carved, and used many other materials such as bone and semi-precious stones.

An example of the casket-shaped box from a museum:


This tradition of carving woolly mammoth ivory boxes lasted until the turn of the century. A few attempts were made to revive the tradition, which might be how my box was made. The box which I found, I believe it is 20th century manufactured. The purple color is a very rare form of woolly mammoth ivory called "Vivianite" and it occurs when purple-colored minerals invade the fossilized tusk. Also, note how the carver set the colors next to each other. The lines in the woolly mammoth ivory are called "Shraeger Lines," and they only occur at an angle below 90 degrees in woolly mammoth ivory. These lines are difficult to fake, and the angle of intersection is very very difficult to fake.

[Goldstein]

Hi Serg1975 -

Faith transcends mountains!
I wish you a lucky hand for all your purchases!

Regards
Goldstein

[Aguest]

::: The woolly mammoth tusk is the last legal form of ivory, although it cannot be sold in New York State (and perhaps California too) :::
::: The "shraeger lines" only occur in small sections on each tusk, and this carver knew how to expose and enhance them obviously :::



::: I have no idea what kind of pelt is inside, but it seems to swell and dry out with humidity changes :::



All sides are carved and matched woolly mammoth tusk, over 1000 small matched pieces set into a frame which looks like bronze or maybe copper?

[Goldstein]

Hi Aguest -

Although this is a silver forum:


Scrimshaw is the name given to scrollwork, engravings, and carvings done in bone or ivory. Typically it refers to the handiwork created by whalers made from the byproducts from harvesting them from marine mammals. It is most commonly made out of the bones and teeth of sperm whales, the baleen of other whales, and the tusks of walruses. It takes the form of elaborate engravings in the form of pictures and lettering on the surface of the bone or tooth, with the engraving highlighted using a pigment, or, less often, small sculptures made from the same material. However the latter really fall into the categories of ivory carving, for all carved teeth and tusks, or bone carving. The making of scrimshaw began on whaling ships between 1745 and 1759 on the Pacific Ocean, and survived until the ban on commercial whaling. The practice survives as a hobby and as a trade for commercial artisans. A maker of scrimshaw is known as a scrimshander.The word first appeared in print in the early 19th century, but the etymology is uncertain.

Mammoth carvings etc. are known and are still being executed (knife handles etc.).
But in our part of Europe mammoths are rarely found - if ever!

Regards
Goldstein

[Aguest]

Thank you, indeed it is a silver forum, but perhaps my information helps AG2012 with his material question, look for the Shraeger Lines and a slightly pink color if perhaps you have Woolly Mammoth tusk.

The boxes from Kholmogory are amazing, and although very few had silver elements, they are still worthy of knowing about them for sheer beauty :::