Old spoon from Gdańsk

[Georg]

Dear All,

Some time ago I got an old spoon (see photo). There is a date on it (1703) but after some research I found that probably it is older.
As per hallmarks I suspect that it originates from Gdańsk (now Poland/German Danzig) from the second half of 17th century.
I was even able to find a possible maker (a Christian Schubert master in 1644) based on CS initials.
However, as I am not very experienced I would like to get an independent confirmation.
If I am right is it possible to narrow the manufacturing period?
Thank you in advance for any help.

Regards,

Georg

[AG2012]

Hi,
Agreed; Christian Schubert, Meister 1644.
Regards

[Georg]

Hi,

Thank you very much for your fast reply, and the confirmation.
Is it known when he died?

Kind regards, and thank you once more,

Georg

[AG2012]

Rosenberg claims (No 1556) he died after 1651.

nach (cross) 1651.

Regards

[Sasropakis]

The style of the spoon doesn't look like mid-17th century to me. I've only seen this type of spoons dating from the early 18th century onwards. Late 17th century spoons usually had a rattail whereas the type in question was made of a single piece. In England it's usually called the Hanoverian pattern and similar spoons were also made in Northern Europe like Sweden and Finland. My knowledge of silver from Gdansk/Danzig is pretty limited so I can't judge the attribution of the hallmark but based on the style I wouldn't say it's from mid-17th century unless there have been some major alterations.

[Georg]

Hi,

Thank you very much for both posts.
As I am no expert on spoon design I can only say something on hallmarks and what is written there.
There is the date 1703, which appears to be a later addition to the original engraving.
I doubt it is fake.
The best approximation to the city mark date I have found is 1670-1700.
As the expert wrote the makers mark started in 1644 but it may continued well after 1651 (if the master lived long or by his widow).
All in all I would say the spoon is from the end of the XVII century, but I am no expert.
Again I would like to thank you both very much.

Kind regards,

Georg

[Theoderich]

This 1703 engraving is a later fake.
I think this spoon is about 1740. But I have never seen this Variation hallmark. And I do not know the maker.

[Georg]

Hi,

I have done some research and found that the first examples of Hanoverian spoon pattern in England are from around 1705. I do not know whether it is British pattern or it came from abroad. The spoon is from Gdańsk, which was in Poland, Prussia or free city depending on the period.
The 1703 date may be fake. OK, but there are two marks that Rosenberg attributes to XVII century. That is harder to explain.

Regards,

Georg

[AG2012]

Rosenberg cannot be trusted in every aspect.
The fact is, this shape of Danzig town mark is not documented for 17th century.
The shape of the spoon is typical for mid 18th century.
On the other hand, there is no CS maker working in 18th century as far as I can tell.
In a word, unsolved so far.
Regards

[Georg]

Hi,

I was able to further reduce the period of the town hallmark.
According to the book M. Gradowski, Marks on silver in Poland,
the mark was used between 1699 and 1707, which is not far from Rosenberg, and is coincident with 1703.

Regards,

Georg

[blakstone]

This is the mark of Christian Schubert II (master 1689; died 1737), whose working dates are much more consistent with the style of the spoon than his uncle's, the previously mentioned Christian Schubert I (master 1644; died after 1651). Christian II was the son of Gottfried Schubert (master 1661; died 1693), the younger brother of Christian I. My reference notes that the marks of the two different Christian Schuberts were very similar, but can be distinguished by the greater space between the letters in the younger Schubert's mark.

Hope this helps!

Ref: Michal Gradowski & Agnieszka Kasprzak-Miler, Zlotnicy na Ziemiach Polnocnej Polski, Czesc I [Goldsmiths of Northern Poland, Part I] (Warsaw: Wydawnictwa DiG, 2002), marks G421 A (C. Schubert I) & G491 A (C. Schubert II)

[Georg]

Hi,

That is helpful indeed! Thank you very much.
Now we have two marks: city (1699-1707), master Christian Schubert II (1689-1737), and engraving (1703).
All of them do overlap.
In summary: I was wrong thinking it is from the XVIIth century.
Based on the discussion I would guess it is from the very beginning of the XVIIIth.
At that time Gdańsk was a prosperous city with a harbour and a lot of trade
so it is thinkable that the new spoon design (Hanoverian) may be known there.

Let me thank everybody for the discussion, which for me was very interesting and valuable.

Kind regards,

Georg

[R ingo]

Hello,

I agree completely with Sasropakis and Theoderich that the spoon is younger.

So Christian Schubert I is of cause indeet impossible and to my opinion even Christian Schubert II is problematic.

The only spoons from Danzig /Gdansk made about 1700 I know are Apostel spoons. I do not know, when the Hannoverian pattern came up in Danzig. But in Germany the first Hannoverian spoons I know from the twenties mostly have still a rat-tail, and the drop of the first Hannoverians without rat-tail looks very different from the drop of this „Gdansk spoon“.

Since 1730 the silver items from Danzig/ Gdansk bare as third mark the sign of the Beschaumeister/ Ältermann. This spoon looks not older then 1730.

Furthermore all Hannoverian spoons I know from Danzig /Gdansk (made in the middle of the 18th century) are marked on the other side on the end of the stem and not in the middle of it.

I have seen several hundreds of 18th century spoons and I presume that the spoon probably was made in the second half of the 18th century. The poorly pointed inscription „1703“ is if cause a fake. May be I am wrong, but it seems, that the other marks are fakes too.


Neverteless, I am ambitious to lern more. So I would be glad about informations to the first non-Apostel-spoons from Danzig.


Kind regards,
Ringo

[Georg]

Hello everybody,

I have never dreamt of such a discussion about this spoon!
Replying to the last post: disregarding the 1703 date, either the other marks are fake or they are genuine.
If they are fake the spoon might have been manufactured anywhere not necessarily in Gdańsk
and not even made of silver. The last I try to check out.
If they are genuine, that is harder to explain bearing in mind the spoon design and the hallmark references.

Kind regards,

Georg

[AG2012]

Hi,
I can bet it`s solid silver and the marks are genuine.
Fakers do not bother to waste time and resources to fake items and marks that are not very lucrative and profitable.
Regards

[Georg]

Hi again,

I agree with the last post: the spoon is not worth much so why bother and fake marks?
Anyway, I will check for silver.

Regards,

Georg

[Sasropakis]

Is there any chance of the 3rd digit of 1703 to be anything other than 0? Like 6 or 8. This would be much more appropriate to the style of the spoon. Also the properly engraved initials appear to be the original ones and BM (?) and 1703 are made later. One explanation could be that they are made by someone who wasn't that sure about writing and somehow messed up the numers, for example the date was meant to be 1803 but 7 was engraved instead. They do look rather clumsy so the person who made them probably wasn't especially skillful. The other initials are placed where one would expect them to be engraved when the spoon was made and they are far better in quality which makes the date 1703 even more questionable. Otherwise the spoon does look like a genuine mid 18th century item and I don't see any reason why the whole thing would be faked.

[Georg]

Hi,

Unfortunately, the date is 1703 and none other. I have checked it again.

Kind regards,

Georg

[AG2012]

We can only speculate what double initials and 1703 mean.
Golden or diamond wedding celebreted in 1763 or 1778 ? Or something else decades after 1703, or faked 1703.
It is mid 18th century spoon, no doubt.
Regards

[Theoderich]

It is possible to get better images of marks?
My problem with this hallmark is, I have no other like this, but I have many hallmarks of Gdansk from this time.