Russian 1795 Hallmarks, Fake or Real?

[bezalel]

I already determined the decorative engraving is modern, but is the tray itself fake? Foolishly, I only took a photo of part of the tray. It's about 12 inches in diameter.

[Juke*]

Could you take photos of the whole object from both sides and which can be opened to large photos. The details are the ones which gives the clues.

[bezalel]

I'm sorry but this tray is not mine, I was at the home of someone to try and help, this is all I have.

[AG2012]

Almost every Imperial Russian Judaica silver is faked because fakers think it`s lucrative to sell. You better forget the offer, although it`s not clear to me how the engraving proved to be modern; It`s about unleavened bread.
Regards

[bezalel]

Hi there is no offer. I am evaluating this for a friend. The Hebrew is for the Passover seder. I know all about Russian Judaica fakes, I'm asking if the hallmarks are real or not.

[Dad]

Yes,
these are genuine Hallmarks.
Regardless of what descendants did with the item, this tray was originally made in Moscow in 1795.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry, but I would not bet on the authenticity, but in that case who is CC (Savelyev or???). In that case AT would/could be Andrey Titov, but to my understanding his marks looks a bit different, but ???
Please note what AG2012 states 3.6.!

To only state: "Yes it is genuine" without any supporting explanation doesn't guarantee authenticity. And yes the mark indicates Moscow 1795, but that doesn't either verify anything!
Tricky case anyway...

[bezalel]

Thank you two both the recent replies of "yes it is authentic", and the person who states "I would not bet on the authenticity". I would appreciate hearing from anyone else. The tray looks the same as the photo seen, just a whole round piece with this built in elevated cut-out/reticulated border. But I really would like to have some consensus if those hallmarks are authentic, or very good fakes. Incidentally, the owner has had the tray in his family since the 1950's.

[AG2012]

Pierced and beaded rim should be closely examined to determine whether the decor is perfectly even (machine made) or every pierced field and bead on the rim are uneven and different, pointing to hand made 18th century decor, which is very time consuming and requires hours and hours of piercing with jeweler`s saw and embossing. No matter how skilled the silvermith is, hand made decor of this kind is never perfect.
In conclusion; definitive judgement in regard of authenticity cannot be made based on marks shown here, i.e.without having the tray in one`s hands.
Regards

[Mart]

[AG2012]

Clearly hand embossed tray, uneven. If that was meant to be shown in the latest post.Unlike modern machine embossing and piercing which is perfectly even and uniform.

[bezalel]

For Mart, who posted the photo of the tray: did you do so to strengthen the opinion that the tray I am asking about is authentic? Because the hallmarks are similar? Or am I reading too much into that?

[Aguest]

:::::: I have an authentic Russian cigarette case with two inner spring-loaded arms marked "STERLING" instead of the original rubber-bands, and part of the rubber-band holders has been shaved off, but I have no doubt the cigarette case is authentic because there are hallmarks on each and every piece, some hallmarks are very tiny, but every piece is clearly hallmarked and it is from a known maker who made similar examples (with rubber bands). :::::::

:::::: Could it be possible that the border was pierced later, perhaps when the engraving was added, maybe at some point 1920-1950 approximately? ::::::

::::: This style of piercing reminds me of American silver platters circa 1920-1950 and given the fact that I have a known authentic piece with a later modification, we know that later modifications of antique Russian silver did happen ::::::

[Aguest]

::::: Also, even if this is an unknown silversmith, are there still recorded marks of this silversmith, even if it is an unknown silversmith? :::::

[bezalel]

AG2012 I have read your replies and based on them and the photo provided of an authentic tray, I believe the marks are fake. I thank you so very much for your thoughts.

[Qrt.S]

Because the hallmarks are similar?

Please take a new look and compare the marks and you will find that they are not similar. Compare the assayer's mark (AT) and as well as the Moscow town mark on both photos.

[Juke*]

Hi!

As pointed out it would be beneficial to see more detailed pictures. In addition the later Hebrew carving somewhat makes thinking go towards the later fake judica pieces but it is away from the origin of the piece and if that is ignored I would conclude the following.

From these pictures what can be said is that the tray would be handmade (as AG2012 mentioned needs to handmade be piercing). For example it can be clearly seen the uneven sizes of the piercings. For the markings they are to my opinion correct (with makers mark and assayer already mentioned by Qrt.S).

The neoclassical style of the tray is also correct for the time period. Also the style and usage of the piercing as a decorative element was typical in this time period on Russian silver for example on trays and baskets (bread, fruit, sweet etc.). The same piercing style was as well used in other countries in the same time period. The tray also has similar features as the one from the same time period shown by Mart.

Here is another example of a tray with similar piercings from the same period. Thereby in my opinion it is an authentic piece so congrats for the nice piece.



Silver tray, Saint Petersburg 1796.

Regards,
Juke

[bezalel]

Thank you very much Juke! Can you share with me what website the tray you picture is from? I want to come up with some sort of value for my friends tray.

[bezalel]

Nevermind Juke, I found it. However the hallmarks on that tray look much different. Boy I really do not know what to think! Anyone else with an opinion of the hallmarks on my tray?

[Juke*]

The tray and the maker which I showed is another and the point was not to find another tray by the same maker. The idea was to show the similar type of the tray from the same period so in my opinion you don't need to question the authenticity of your friends tray as otherwise it shows correct details and marks as expected from the same period. We don't share value estimations here so I will leave out that information and the source even if you could find it yourself.

More importantly your friend should appreciate the rare tray and especially use it during the family occasions! The silver can be and is intended to be used for many generations!