Pair of sugar tongs - silver-gilded nielloed

[Silverstone]

Hi,
today I present you a rare pair of sugar-tongs of gilded-silver and niello-technique.




Moscow 18??

Assay master: Karpinsky, Mikhaiil Mikhailovich (1825-1838)
Master: Aш ? Дш

14 cm
52 g

Motif: hunter with rifle
Hunters with shotguns and wolves in the background were popular motifs on niello-cups and hunting knives in the 18th/19th century.


Motif: flower basket


Times have changed.
What's your favourite?


Regards
Silverstone

[Ubaranda]

Assayer Mikhail Karpinsky worked in Moscow in 1800-1824. Since 1825 he worked in St.Petersburg. Hence the year on the hallmark is 1820.

[Silverstone]

Thank you very much Ubaranda,

what you write is correct:
Karpinsky, Mikhail - PL 2089 + 2099, Moskow
I looked at Watts p 82.
Moscow and St. Petersburg stand among themselves.
I looked too quickly.

Regards
Silverstone

[Silverstone]

Hi,

please can any of you name the maker of my sugar tongs.

I guess:
АШ, Shikhin, Andrey, Андрей Шихин, – PL 507 - Tver (Kalinin)
Thanks in advance.

I want to show you an illustration of a niello milk jug with a hunter (Tobolsk 1778, The State Historical Museum, Moscow) which I found in my book:





By the way, my sugar tongs have found a noble place.
This jug belonged to a service belonging to the Governor of Siberia DI Chicherin. (Tobolsk 1775, The State Museum, Kreml).
Unfortunately, the excursion only took place on paper...




Regards
Siverstone

[Qrt.S]

Let's start from the beginning. This is my best shot!

MK is the assayer (official) in Moscow. He is Mihail Karpinsky, active 1800-1824 in Moscow. This town mark of Moscow was used during the first half of the 19th century. Ubaranda's suggestion 1820 is quite possible.
АШ is the maker (goldsmith/master). Unfortunately I don't know his name. (There are still many to name unknown masters in imperial Russia). However, it cannot be Andrey Shihin because he worked in Tver (as also mentioned!), not in Moscow.
If somebody knows the name (АШ), I would be happy to know it, thank you in advance!
FYI,
Please, avoid Watts, it contains too much "mistakes" as well as misspellings!

[Silverstone]

Hi Qrt.S,

thank you for answering immediately.
If it is not possible to name the maker, russian silver is undoubtedly
"Sugar for the eyes".

Regards
Silverstone

[Qrt.S]

My pleasure. Please note that I didn't write it is impossible but "I don't know the full name!". One cannot know it all :-)))

[piette]

Very nicely made tongs! Lovely design and beautiful work!

Sam

[Silverstone]

Hi Sam,

I appreciate your feedback.

Ready for afternoon tea:


Solokova M. - Solokova M. - Rukawischnikov W. - Zusa V. - Aш

Regards
Silverstone

[Silverstone]

Dear menbers,
sorry, the name was Sokolova Maria!

Regards
Silverstone

[Qrt.S]

Yes the punch MC is most likely Maria Sokolova in Moscow 1886-1908. However, please keep in mind that in those days a female silversmith was something out of question, but! Maria Sokolova was the owner of a silver workshop. To my understanding she inherited it from her father after his death. She didn't, anyway, make anything and was not a skilled master, but as a daughter of her deceased father she got the right to punch her mark on objects made in her father's workshop to her own death! The same was possible for a deceased master's widow! Therefore you sometimes can stumble into female names in Russian silver/gold punches, but that doesn't mean that there were skilled female master in former Russia, no way! This has been discussed/mentioned here before!

[Silverstone]

Hi Qrt.S,

thanks for your information „Maria Sokolova“.

Not quite relevant to the topic, but interesting to know:
„By the end of the 19th century, the position of women in Russian society was not as unequivocally disenfranchised as it is commonly thought to be.

Women found ways to solve their familiar problems, manage enterprises and firms. Of course, all these opportunities were not easy to implement and only the most energetic of Russian women succeeded.

Russian Imperial law did not discriminate between men and women in the sphere of business ownership.

Imperial Law also made no distinction between women and men in terms of taxes. A woman could set up a commercial enterprise and join the merchant class, provided that she paid the taxes.

Reference to:
Dr. Galina Ulianova, "Women Merchants, Noblewomen, Women Tycoons" (Moscow, 2021), released by the “NLO” publishing house.


Regards
Silverstone

[Qrt.S]

#Silverstone

The question was only that were there female goldsmiths in imperial Russia and nothing else? The answer is still NO! That was mission impossible in Russia in those days. There is not a single document known that would would prove/show that women at that time could train as goldsmiths. But what is a known fact is that wives and daughters who inherited the business (with the workshop) could continue with it and as I mentioned earlier have a punch of their own after their husband's/father's death. That doesn't make them a master! However, they could and some did manage the business but that was all!

The goldsmith workshop was not a place for women. It was a dirty place with harsh language etc...

What has the book you show to do with this? Of course women could work etc...but not as goldsmiths!

[Silverstone]

Hello Qrt.S,

that's how I understood it!

Regards
Silverstone

[Qrt.S]

#Silverstone
No problem, it is OK if you understod that there were no female masters!
Have a nice evening!

[Mart]

Until about the middle of the 19th century, workshops in Russia could only be opened by silversmiths. There are women's surnames among them, but I didn't study what exactly they were doing. The names of women silversmiths can be found closer to the end of the 20th century. At this time, the workshops were undergoing sanitary inspections. They could have been closed. Violations could be in large factories, but there were also very convenient small workshops.
Here are some photos of "dirty" (from your words) workshops in Russia:

[Qrt.S]

I repeat I have said this many times before:
The female names/marks are daughters or widows who according to the law got the right to use/register an official mark/punch of their own to their death after their husband's/father's death (I have study that!). They undoubtedly run the workshop only but they were not trained goldsmiths accepted by the gild and didn't either make anything. That was an "out of question case" in those days. Not a single known document supports female graduated goldsmiths in former Russia!
A metal workshop is by no means a "clean" place it is "dirty" but not dirty, not to talk about the rough "language" used there.
About the photos, try to find a woman there...

[Mart]

You don't have to repeat it anymore. Your information will not be correct from this.
Especially for you once again: women's names are on the lists of masters, for example, of the 1820s of silversmithing, who passed exams. These are the ЦЕХОВЫЕ masters of silversmithing.
About filthiness. There were a lot of workshops in which the silversmith worked alone or with an assistant. There were workshops of Old Believers, if you know who they are.

[Qrt.S]

You always talk talk talk but you never show any waterproof evidences of ANY female goldsmith accepted by the Russian gild. Until then I will not pay any attention to your writings!

[Mart]

Until then I will not pay any attention to your writings!

Thank you so much for that! It will be very good!
Of course, I have real documents, not just empty words. Otherwise I wouldn't have talked about it. I have published documents before, but it's not my fault that they don't help you, although I try very hard to write everything as clearly as possible. I have already explained to you very clearly several times why I have no reason to post dozens of documents here. Probably you think that I'm sitting and just making something up myself?)))
And what evidence have you given, apart from someone's questionable words?
Especially for you, I am showing a list of silversmiths of 1826. There are two women here Denisova and Klepikovа.