I can't find the correspondence for the silversmith for an ancient tastevin 1775/1781 from Orleans, anyone can help me?
French tastevin departement Orlean
French tastevin departement Orlean
Hy all,
I can't find the correspondence for the silversmith for an ancient tastevin 1775/1781 from Orleans, anyone can help me?
I can't find the correspondence for the silversmith for an ancient tastevin 1775/1781 from Orleans, anyone can help me?
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
Hello
I don’t see concordance between the marks on your tastevin. As you note, the crowned R appears to be the charge mark for Orléans 1775-1781. The crowned T is presumably the date letter (poinçon de jurande). However in the cycle of date letters for Orléans, T was used in 1700 and 1746, but not during the period between 1775-1781 when the date letter should be L, M, or N.
In checking marks of pre-Revolutionary makers from Orléans during that time period, none has the initials IB, TB or PB with a symbol of a 5-pointed star. You have both PB and IB from the Bataille dynasty of makers, but neither uses that symbol.
I see traces of another mark just above the maker’s mark, and some kind of mark in the upper right quadrant of your photo.
Due to lack of concordance between the charge mark and date letter mark and the unidentified maker’s mark, I believe the marks are spurious, as often the case with tastevin.
Regards.
See:
Musée des Beaux-Arts d’Orléans. Les Orfèvres d’Orléans. Paris, Somogy, 2003.
pp. 63-69 for hallmarks
pp. 72-76 for makers with last name B
I don’t see concordance between the marks on your tastevin. As you note, the crowned R appears to be the charge mark for Orléans 1775-1781. The crowned T is presumably the date letter (poinçon de jurande). However in the cycle of date letters for Orléans, T was used in 1700 and 1746, but not during the period between 1775-1781 when the date letter should be L, M, or N.
In checking marks of pre-Revolutionary makers from Orléans during that time period, none has the initials IB, TB or PB with a symbol of a 5-pointed star. You have both PB and IB from the Bataille dynasty of makers, but neither uses that symbol.
I see traces of another mark just above the maker’s mark, and some kind of mark in the upper right quadrant of your photo.
Due to lack of concordance between the charge mark and date letter mark and the unidentified maker’s mark, I believe the marks are spurious, as often the case with tastevin.
Regards.
See:
Musée des Beaux-Arts d’Orléans. Les Orfèvres d’Orléans. Paris, Somogy, 2003.
pp. 63-69 for hallmarks
pp. 72-76 for makers with last name B
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
Dear JayT thank you very much for your exhaustive answer, I have some questions for you though, so that mark you see is the trace of an old lot label, where did you get the info on the date letter/poinc de jurande cycle for Orleans? Every time I go crazy to distinguish the poincon de charge from that of the common house, if it weren't for the crown which in the first case is closed and in the second open, I would exchange them, and then I really don't know how to give a precise date because I can't find anything from the Tardy or from the text by Jacques Helft and Beuque. I don't know if I was clear, but it's something that drives me crazy every time, will it be the de charge punch or the de jurande punch?
Unfortunately I don'have this catalogue to check the marks..but on the Tardy, pp 134 I found the correspondence of the T for the year 1782.
given your super kindness could you let me know yours? I also published another post about a Riom tastevin for more or less the same reason....
Kindest
Unfortunately I don'have this catalogue to check the marks..but on the Tardy, pp 134 I found the correspondence of the T for the year 1782.
given your super kindness could you let me know yours? I also published another post about a Riom tastevin for more or less the same reason....
Kindest
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
Hello
Yes, the pre-Revolutionary French marking system can be confusing.
Here is a brief overview of how the system worked:
-Silversmith marked the object with his personal mark upon completion
-Silversmith takes the object to the maison commune (guild) to be tested for silver content. If the object meets the silver standard for that province, it is marked with a letter that changes annually. This mark is called the date letter in English or the poinçon de jurande or poinçon de la maison commune in French.
-Next the object is taken to the tax authority called the fermier général to be weighed and tax charged. The fermier général stamps the object with a charge mark (poinçon de charge). The charge mark is specific to the province and changes every time a new tax authority is named, usually every 3-5 years.
-The object is returned to the silversmith for any finishing, then goes back to the fermier général for tax to be paid in accordance with the finished weight of the object. A final stamp is applied, called the poinçon de décharge to show that tax obligations have been discharged.
-The object is now ready for sale by the silversmith.
The poinçon de jurande, poinçon de charge and poinçon de décharge are all specific to a province or city. Therefore, you cannot have a date letter from Paris on an object from Orléans. Date letters were not standardized across France.
You show a page from Tardy with Paris date letters. If you turn to p.166 in Tardy, you’ll see examples of some Orléans date letters. The reference I listed above is much more complete for Orléans and has 5 pages of hallmarks, including a complete list of date letter marks.
There must be concordance between all these marks, meaning that the silversmith’s working dates must correspond to the dates of the charge mark, the poinçon de jurande, and the poinçon de décharge.
When you examine an object to determine provenance, you should start with the charge mark because that will at least give you an idea of where to begin your search for a maker. Or if the maker is well known to you, you nevertheless make sure that there is concordance with all the other marks. Starting with the date letter isn’t a good idea because date letters from various cities and provinces can ressemble each other.
In your specific case, you started with the charge mark, discovered it is from Orléans 1775-1781, so you know that the date letter must correspond to this time period. It does not, so already you have a problem.
Hope this explanation helps a bit.
Regards.
Yes, the pre-Revolutionary French marking system can be confusing.
Here is a brief overview of how the system worked:
-Silversmith marked the object with his personal mark upon completion
-Silversmith takes the object to the maison commune (guild) to be tested for silver content. If the object meets the silver standard for that province, it is marked with a letter that changes annually. This mark is called the date letter in English or the poinçon de jurande or poinçon de la maison commune in French.
-Next the object is taken to the tax authority called the fermier général to be weighed and tax charged. The fermier général stamps the object with a charge mark (poinçon de charge). The charge mark is specific to the province and changes every time a new tax authority is named, usually every 3-5 years.
-The object is returned to the silversmith for any finishing, then goes back to the fermier général for tax to be paid in accordance with the finished weight of the object. A final stamp is applied, called the poinçon de décharge to show that tax obligations have been discharged.
-The object is now ready for sale by the silversmith.
The poinçon de jurande, poinçon de charge and poinçon de décharge are all specific to a province or city. Therefore, you cannot have a date letter from Paris on an object from Orléans. Date letters were not standardized across France.
You show a page from Tardy with Paris date letters. If you turn to p.166 in Tardy, you’ll see examples of some Orléans date letters. The reference I listed above is much more complete for Orléans and has 5 pages of hallmarks, including a complete list of date letter marks.
There must be concordance between all these marks, meaning that the silversmith’s working dates must correspond to the dates of the charge mark, the poinçon de jurande, and the poinçon de décharge.
When you examine an object to determine provenance, you should start with the charge mark because that will at least give you an idea of where to begin your search for a maker. Or if the maker is well known to you, you nevertheless make sure that there is concordance with all the other marks. Starting with the date letter isn’t a good idea because date letters from various cities and provinces can ressemble each other.
In your specific case, you started with the charge mark, discovered it is from Orléans 1775-1781, so you know that the date letter must correspond to this time period. It does not, so already you have a problem.
Hope this explanation helps a bit.
Regards.
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
Dear JayT thank you so much fornthe patience and exhaustive explanation, unfortunately I don't have a really rich bibliotech to consult to for French marks and it is quite difficult to match, often, all the punches to each other; does the page of the Tardy referred to as stamps of the maison commune refer to the city of Paris and the satellite cities that belonged to it, or just Paris? in my specific case then my date is wrong for Orlean 1781-82?JayT wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 10:09 am Hello
Yes, the pre-Revolutionary French marking system can be confusing.
Here is a brief overview of how the system worked:
-Silversmith marked the object with his personal mark upon completion
-Silversmith takes the object to the maison commune (guild) to be tested for silver content. If the object meets the silver standard for that province, it is marked with a letter that changes annually. This mark is called the date letter in English or the poinçon de jurande or poinçon de la maison commune in French.
-Next the object is taken to the tax authority called the fermier général to be weighed and tax charged. The fermier général stamps the object with a charge mark (poinçon de charge). The charge mark is specific to the province and changes every time a new tax authority is named, usually every 3-5 years.
-The object is returned to the silversmith for any finishing, then goes back to the fermier général for tax to be paid in accordance with the finished weight of the object. A final stamp is applied, called the poinçon de décharge to show that tax obligations have been discharged.
-The object is now ready for sale by the silversmith.
The poinçon de jurande, poinçon de charge and poinçon de décharge are all specific to a province or city. Therefore, you cannot have a date letter from Paris on an object from Orléans. Date letters were not standardized across France.
You show a page from Tardy with Paris date letters. If you turn to p.166 in Tardy, you’ll see examples of some Orléans date letters. The reference I listed above is much more complete for Orléans and has 5 pages of hallmarks, including a complete list of date letter marks.
There must be concordance between all these marks, meaning that the silversmith’s working dates must correspond to the dates of the charge mark, the poinçon de jurande, and the poinçon de décharge.
When you examine an object to determine provenance, you should start with the charge mark because that will at least give you an idea of where to begin your search for a maker. Or if the maker is well known to you, you nevertheless make sure that there is concordance with all the other marks. Starting with the date letter isn’t a good idea because date letters from various cities and provinces can ressemble each other.
In your specific case, you started with the charge mark, discovered it is from Orléans 1775-1781, so you know that the date letter must correspond to this time period. It does not, so already you have a problem.
Hope this explanation helps a bit.
Regards.
Couldn't it be instead that the T is the loading punch and the R of the la jurande? ahaha I want to find a connection at all costs
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
Hello again.
While I understand that you really wish your tastevin to be genuine, you can’t simply make the marks fit your desires. The French marking system is quite precise.
The crowned R is not a date letter mark, and the crowned T doesn’t correspond to the time period of the charge mark.
Yes, the page from Tardy shows poinçons de la maison commune (date letters) only for Paris. However on page 166, you’ll find examples of a few date letters from Orléans about half way down the page, rows 3 and 4.
Good luck in your continued research on this item.
Regards.
While I understand that you really wish your tastevin to be genuine, you can’t simply make the marks fit your desires. The French marking system is quite precise.
The crowned R is not a date letter mark, and the crowned T doesn’t correspond to the time period of the charge mark.
Yes, the page from Tardy shows poinçons de la maison commune (date letters) only for Paris. However on page 166, you’ll find examples of a few date letters from Orléans about half way down the page, rows 3 and 4.
Good luck in your continued research on this item.
Regards.
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
Thank you very much,JayT wrote: ↑Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:46 pm Hello again.
While I understand that you really wish your tastevin to be genuine, you can’t simply make the marks fit your desires. The French marking system is quite precise.
The crowned R is not a date letter mark, and the crowned T doesn’t correspond to the time period of the charge mark.
Yes, the page from Tardy shows poinçons de la maison commune (date letters) only for Paris. However on page 166, you’ll find examples of a few date letters from Orléans about half way down the page, rows 3 and 4.
Good luck in your continued research on this item.
Regards.
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
My pleasure!
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
Hi,
There are usually 4 marks on ancient French silver (pre-revolutionary i.e. Ancient régime, before 1789). The last one is the décharge, it should be on the outer side of the tastevin. It is sometimes missing. The 3 marks on your picture are the silversmith's, easilly identified (with letters IB), the charge and the jurande.
As you noticed, it is often difficult to distinguish charge and jurande, since both are crowned letters. The R, with a closed crown, is the charge for 1775-81. Its design helps to identify it, since all the charges in France for this period have the same design (with little round holes on the pattern).
The letter R is for Orléans. Originally, it is the letter for the Royal mint. You can find the same letter on the coins. The royal mint was the administrative authority for silversmiths.
Here there is another challenge ! Charge and décharge marks were stamped for taxes. In Ancient régime, taxes were collected by private organisations, not administrations (sorts of concessions changed every 6 years). The people that collected taxes (for silver and gold) in the Orléans area collected taxes in another area a bit further away, around Nervers and Moulins, southwest of Orléans. And they used the same marks for both areas !
That means that the charge mark R 1775-81, well known as Orléans', is also the mark for Moulins' (even if Moulins was in the administrative area of the mint of Riom). It happens as well for 1781-1789, but also before 1775. This explains the incoherence between the jurande T and the jurandes of Orléans (K-L-M-N) for 1775-1781. T is the jurande for Moulins. Even French experts (in Auctions in Paris for example) are not aware of this.
So, your tastevin was made in Moulins between 1775 and 1781. I'll make some research soon to be more precise.
There are usually 4 marks on ancient French silver (pre-revolutionary i.e. Ancient régime, before 1789). The last one is the décharge, it should be on the outer side of the tastevin. It is sometimes missing. The 3 marks on your picture are the silversmith's, easilly identified (with letters IB), the charge and the jurande.
As you noticed, it is often difficult to distinguish charge and jurande, since both are crowned letters. The R, with a closed crown, is the charge for 1775-81. Its design helps to identify it, since all the charges in France for this period have the same design (with little round holes on the pattern).
The letter R is for Orléans. Originally, it is the letter for the Royal mint. You can find the same letter on the coins. The royal mint was the administrative authority for silversmiths.
Here there is another challenge ! Charge and décharge marks were stamped for taxes. In Ancient régime, taxes were collected by private organisations, not administrations (sorts of concessions changed every 6 years). The people that collected taxes (for silver and gold) in the Orléans area collected taxes in another area a bit further away, around Nervers and Moulins, southwest of Orléans. And they used the same marks for both areas !
That means that the charge mark R 1775-81, well known as Orléans', is also the mark for Moulins' (even if Moulins was in the administrative area of the mint of Riom). It happens as well for 1781-1789, but also before 1775. This explains the incoherence between the jurande T and the jurandes of Orléans (K-L-M-N) for 1775-1781. T is the jurande for Moulins. Even French experts (in Auctions in Paris for example) are not aware of this.
So, your tastevin was made in Moulins between 1775 and 1781. I'll make some research soon to be more precise.
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
Christophe Ginter, in Les 6000 poinçons de l'orfèvrerie française sous Louis XVI (1775-1791), says the silversmith could be Jean André Burand, who started to work in 1740 in Moulins.
The jurande mark T is for 1778-79.
The jurande mark T is for 1778-79.
Re: French tastevin departement Orlean
Hi,
Everybody agrees that, apart from the clear mark with the crowned T and the form of the mastermark, the other mark is a crowned R? Could it be another crowned mark? This mark does in any case certainly not look like the Charge-mark for Moulins, a mark with windmill wings (See Jacques Helft, Le Poinçon des Provinces Françaises, page 248). So, if this tastevin is from Moulins, is there an explanation that the charge-mark for Moulins is missing?
Everybody agrees that, apart from the clear mark with the crowned T and the form of the mastermark, the other mark is a crowned R? Could it be another crowned mark? This mark does in any case certainly not look like the Charge-mark for Moulins, a mark with windmill wings (See Jacques Helft, Le Poinçon des Provinces Françaises, page 248). So, if this tastevin is from Moulins, is there an explanation that the charge-mark for Moulins is missing?