CPB makers mark (Charles Penny Brown?) but no city stamp - fake?

[susuwatari]

Dear all,

I was hoping you could help with some research into a silver doohickey I found while metal detecting in central Scotland. There are only three hallmarks present which I know is usually an indicator of something fishy! The lion passant guardant is present but worn, and the date stamp looks more like a 6 than anything else I could identify.

CPB brought me to the Birmingham board as Charles Penny Brown is who comes up for the maker mark, but it doesn't look like any other examples out there - and all others have the city mark. I don't know what the doohickey is (and I know this isn't the place for IDs) but it does fit with Penny Brown's work, given the sharp curves on the back of this object and the holes it could have been attached to a purse or something similar I imagine.

Can anyone help? I'm sorry I'm a novice, I'm not even sure it's silver... from the back it might be plated? Hope these images are clear enough!

[susuwatari]

Sorry for messing up the urls..... n00b error :(


Front with hallmarks:

Lion plus date stamp?:

Makers mark: vs real Charles Penny Brown stamp: http://www.silvercollection.it/592INGLESEBIS.jpg

Back of piece:

[susuwatari]

Sorry again, normally I can use forums, honest! If this doesn't work I'll stop spamming my own thread.


Front with hallmarks:

Lion plus date stamp?:


Makers mark:
vs real Charles Penny Brown stamp:

Back of piece:


Sorry again! TIA :)

[AG2012]

Hi,
Welcome to the forum.
Charles Penny Brown, Birmingham, made leather goods (e.g. purses, wallets). I suppose the item you found is a clasp that was riveted to leather (three holes). There is a possibility this was not the only silver part and the anchor mark was elsewhere.
Cheers

[susuwatari]

Thanks for taking the time to reply!

I agree that another component could have the anchor, I hadn't found an example of this until recently. CPB was apparently only smithing from 1902-1909 and I'm having a hard time matching the date mark up. A 'b' would suggest 1901 which would make it the earliest piece I could find... and the stamp looks more intentionally rounded at the top, so I'm not sure?

Looking at his purses and wallets it's a bit too ornate, maybe it's a hinge from a prayer book or similar. Either way, I've always loved silver and this is a fascinating intro, thank you!

[dognose]

Hi Susuwatari,

Welcome to the Forum.

CPB was apparently only smithing from 1902-1909

This is incorrect. Brown started his business around 1860, and his firm, later styled Charles P. Brown & Sons, were noted as exhibitors at the British Industries Fair of 1915.

Trev.

[susuwatari]

Thank you for the clarification, I wrongly assumed from some webpage :(

This is incorrect. Brown started his business around 1860, and his firm, later styled Charles P. Brown & Sons, were noted as exhibitors at the British Industries Fair of 1915.

Trev.

[silvermakersmarks]

That would be my web site you got the information from. Please note that the dates on my site only represent the dates for which I have seen that particular mark and do not represent any sort of absolute working dates. This is carefully explained on the site's front page.

Phil

[susuwatari]

Thanks Phil, I wasn't careful enough in my research and reading for sure - but I think I got it elsewhere (I wouldn't consider your resource "some website"!). I remember it mentioned a 1902 stamp being the "earliest" whereas your site has 1903.

Can anyone make a guess at/can identify the date stamp? Sorry if I'm being blind! Thanks again.

[AG2012]

I think it`s 1876.
Cheers

[silvermakersmarks]

My vote would be for 1895, on both letter shape and punch shape (the latter being oval for 1876).

Phil

[AG2012]

Agree.It`s letter ``v``.
Cannot recall variations in backgrounds during the late 19th century (I think they have been discussed).
Cheers

[susuwatari]

Thanks so very much folks, that looks right! Really appreciate your help and sorry for newbie questions.

Phil, would you want to use photos of this item component for an updated earliest seen CPB set of marks? I understand if the absence of the anchor or the remainder of the object put you off, but otherwise I can take more photos to your specifications :)

[silvermakersmarks]

Thanks, susuwatari, my entry for Brown will include the new date next time I update my site.

Phil

[Nvntivs]

Even if this topic is now rather old… Maybe my reply will help somebody.

To be honest I doubt it is the Charles Penny Brown, unless he worked for quite an unusually long time.
Please check the pictures of my wallet:




I think it is rather obvious, that the date letter is a gothic B. The slightly different form of the cartouche is not so much of a hint, since I saw many different versions of cartouches on small sized objects still definitely matching the year acc. to the letter.
Thus I assume, that the CPB(with or without the 5) was some other silversmith. Still, if anyone has more information or would like to correct me in any detail - I will appreciate.

[Nvntivs]

Even if this topic is now rather old… Maybe my reply will help somebody.

To be honest I doubt it is the Charles Penny Brown, unless he worked for quite an unusually long time.
Please check the pictures of my wallet:
I think it is rather obvious, that the date letter is a gothic B. The slightly different form of the cartouche is not so much of a hint, since I saw many different versions of cartouches on small sized objects still definitely matching the year acc. to the letter.
Thus I assume, that the CPB(with or without the 5) was some other silversmith. Still, if anyone has more information or would like to correct me in any detail - I will appreciate.

Sorry, the first links are not working for some reason… here the correct ones.

[silvermakersmarks]

Hi Nvntivs and welcome to the forum.

The date letter on your wallet is quite definitely "v" (1895), not "b" and I can assure you that the different punch shapes for the 2 dates really are significant. The other significant point is the lack of a duty mark which definitely rules out 1876. You might like to compare hallmarks for the 2 dates:

1876


1895


Phil

[Nvntivs]

Hi Nvntivs and welcome to the forum.

The date letter on your wallet is quite definitely "v" (1895), not "b" and I can assure you that the different punch shapes for the 2 dates really are significant. The other significant point is the lack of a duty mark which definitely rules out 1876. You might like to compare hallmarks for the 2 dates:

1876


1895


Phil

Thanks for your reply. However, I am not yet 100% persuaded. As of the shape of the punch, please see the picture below -the letter identifies the date as 1846 while the cartouche is shaped differently, lacking the tip.


Regarding the shape of the letter...I saw several drawings and examples of the V of 1895 and they never had this small "tail" to the left while the upper "tail" missing… But I may certainly be wrong.
Now the duty mark is certainly a good hint, however same as the first picture, these two following show dates of before 1890 and yet lacking this mark.



Yet there is one reason why I doubt the 1876 myself. This wallet style is rather common around the end of 19th century, but I never saw any (other) specimen older than about 1890. So after all you might certainly be right.

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

To explain all these details to you, is going to take some time, so please bear with us at this busy time of year.

I think it will be better to take some points one at a time, so, as far a watchcases are concerned, Duty on watchcases was removed in 1798. You will not find a Duty mark upon one after that date. The Duty on other items was abolished on the 1st May 1890.

Trev.

[Nvntivs]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

To explain all these details to you, is going to take some time, so please bear with us at this busy time of year.

I think it will be better to take some points one at a time, so, as far a watchcases are concerned, Duty on watchcases was removed in 1798. You will not find a Duty mark upon one after that date. The Duty on other items was abolished on the 1st May 1890.

Trev.

Now THIS is some valuable information… thanks a lot. Duly noted :)
It seems then, that the date is indeed rather 1895 than 1876. This would move the probability of also these silver parts of the wallet were made by Charles Penny brown up the scale.