Hi all,
I'm new here... I just registered yesterday. I'm semi-retired (chuckle) and have recently become very interested in silver flatware and hollow ware. I would appreciate it very much if one (or more) of you could please refer me to a site that shows all the coin silver hallmarks, dates, and history of the company. I'm interested in any and all sites having to do with any solid silver flatware and hollow ware as well.
I will contribute any good information and sites I find too. Here's one I found yesterday. You may all know about it already, but maybe there's another newbie like me that didn't. http://www.silvercollecting.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thank you all in advance,
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Coin silver hallmarks - Where's a site that shows them?
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renocharles
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:59 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
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dmay
If there were one such site, there would probably be no need for sites like this! Having said that, I will steer you to a site that has been compiled by a fabulous scholar of American coin silver makers. It is foremost a geneaology site for American silver makers, but I have found it quite helpful for research purposes.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... rnames.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... rnames.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Hi Charles,
Welcome to the forum and silvercollecting. I have to concur that Wm. Voss's site on coin silversmiths is a fantastic resource and well worth contributing to.
The other marks site at silvercollecting lists some 193 American maker's marks, virtually all of which can be found at our site, along with approx. 600 more American marks. However, they do list the marks of silverplate companies which we do not do here.
If your interest is genuine, you are going to need to acquire a couple of books. For starters, I recommend Rainwater's - Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers and Kovel's - American Silver Marks: 1650 to the Present. Both are reasonably priced and easy to get ahold of. You can find more info on them here at
http://www.925-1000.com/bibliography.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In time, I hope that this site will surpass them in illustrated American marks, but we've got a ways to go yet!
Regards, Tom
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Welcome to the forum and silvercollecting. I have to concur that Wm. Voss's site on coin silversmiths is a fantastic resource and well worth contributing to.
The other marks site at silvercollecting lists some 193 American maker's marks, virtually all of which can be found at our site, along with approx. 600 more American marks. However, they do list the marks of silverplate companies which we do not do here.
If your interest is genuine, you are going to need to acquire a couple of books. For starters, I recommend Rainwater's - Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers and Kovel's - American Silver Marks: 1650 to the Present. Both are reasonably priced and easy to get ahold of. You can find more info on them here at
http://www.925-1000.com/bibliography.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In time, I hope that this site will surpass them in illustrated American marks, but we've got a ways to go yet!
Regards, Tom
.
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renocharles
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:59 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
Thank you very much. I figured as much and will join as many as possible, sharing any I come across with all of you.dmay wrote:If there were one such site, there would probably be no need for sites like this! Having said that, I will steer you to a site that has been compiled by a fabulous scholar of American coin silver makers. It is foremost a geneaology site for American silver makers, but I have found it quite helpful for research purposes.
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... rnames.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
.
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renocharles
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:59 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
Thank you for the warm welcome Tom! I will check into both of your recommended books and I wish you the best in building your site. I'll be checking in, reading, learning and contributing helpful information when I can.admin wrote:Hi Charles,
Welcome to the forum and silvercollecting. I have to concur that Wm. Voss's site on coin silversmiths is a fantastic resource and well worth contributing to.
The other marks site at silvercollecting lists some 193 American maker's marks, virtually all of which can be found at our site, along with approx. 600 more American marks. However, they do list the marks of silverplate companies which we do not do here.
If your interest is genuine, you are going to need to acquire a couple of books. For starters, I recommend Rainwater's - Encyclopedia of American Silver Manufacturers and Kovel's - American Silver Marks: 1650 to the Present. Both are reasonably priced and easy to get ahold of. You can find more info on them here at
http://www.925-1000.com/bibliography.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
In time, I hope that this site will surpass them in illustrated American marks, but we've got a ways to go yet!
Regards, Tom
:) Charles
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dmay
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renocharles
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:59 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
First, I apologise for not addressing you by name, but your post isn't signed and your name is not in your profile.dmay wrote:There are also very good books covering coin silver in particular areas of the country, if you have a specific geographic area in mind. I also find that Stephen Ensko's American Silversmiths book is helpful, particularly for early silver makers.
Thank you for your response and no, I have no specific area in mind. To be candid, I've "dealt" (commercially) with silver for many years, but it wasn't until quite recently that I've become interested in learning more of its history (and that of its makers).
Pardon the reference (to the "commercial" aspects), but may I assume we all do some "trading" to support our passions? (smiling)
I may not be able to contribute much in the way of your specialty, but I have some degree of knowledge and experience with gold and silver coins and jewelry and while these subjects (may) be "off topic," I'll be glad to share knowledge in these areas if it is requested (and acceptible) in this forum.
Regards,
Charles
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Thank you for the kind words; the project has given me great pleasure in the doing and I am happy to hear that others have found it of some use.
Now, a small request. Please do not recommend the use of Kovel's book. It is, like all the other publications that have made the couple wealthy, devoid of scholarship and, as a consequence, chock-a-block with errors. Wyler's work, though now nearly 70 years out of date, at least has the benefit of some actual knowledge of the subject matter, though Rainwater and last edition of Ensko are better choices for general references.
Wm Voss
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Now, a small request. Please do not recommend the use of Kovel's book. It is, like all the other publications that have made the couple wealthy, devoid of scholarship and, as a consequence, chock-a-block with errors. Wyler's work, though now nearly 70 years out of date, at least has the benefit of some actual knowledge of the subject matter, though Rainwater and last edition of Ensko are better choices for general references.
Wm Voss
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Hi Wm.,
Without doubt, Ensko's fourth edition is a far more scholarly work than Kovels'. However, for a starter reference, it is a bit pricey for many people. Hence, my recommending Kovels', which can be had, second hand, for next to nothing. Certainly it has errors, but it also has a great deal of valid information. For the novice, I think it makes sense, but I'll gladly temper my recommendation with... if your interest in the subject continues, upgrade to the better researched, more expensive references and pass your Kovel on to another beginner, it's not weighty enough for a good doorstop.
Regards, Tom
.
Without doubt, Ensko's fourth edition is a far more scholarly work than Kovels'. However, for a starter reference, it is a bit pricey for many people. Hence, my recommending Kovels', which can be had, second hand, for next to nothing. Certainly it has errors, but it also has a great deal of valid information. For the novice, I think it makes sense, but I'll gladly temper my recommendation with... if your interest in the subject continues, upgrade to the better researched, more expensive references and pass your Kovel on to another beginner, it's not weighty enough for a good doorstop.
Regards, Tom
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renocharles
- Posts: 14
- Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2005 9:59 pm
- Location: Reno, NV
.........................wev wrote:I have been admonished privately (and civilly) that Kovel does have use. After careful consideration, I am willing to concede the point: it makes an excellent doorstop. . .
Wm Voss
I agree with Tom... It's not "heavy" enough. (Sorry, I couldn't resist the play on words). I have begun looking at your website. Kudos! I hope I come across something of value to add to it!
Charles
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Open it to page 175, lay it flat on the floor, and slide it beneath the door. Works perfectly.
Ensko is cheap -- half the price of a descent Brookhouse serving spoon, a tenth the price of an overrated Kalo finger bowl.
Bad knowledge is worse than no knowledge at all. Those suffering the latter can always seek solace here; those suffering the former think they know the answer and compound the error.
Wm Voss
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Ensko is cheap -- half the price of a descent Brookhouse serving spoon, a tenth the price of an overrated Kalo finger bowl.
Bad knowledge is worse than no knowledge at all. Those suffering the latter can always seek solace here; those suffering the former think they know the answer and compound the error.
Wm Voss
.
Wm,
Thanks for the tip, gave it a shot but my door saddles are too high and the book too thin.
Not one to ignore an open book, a glance at page 175 yielded some interesting information, a partnership between Andrew Hays & Myer Myers ca. 1770.
18th Century American silversmiths are not a subject that I know a great deal about, but Myer Myers is a famous name and I'd even heard of his short partnership with Benjamin Halstead, but Hayes, nah.
Knowing the limitations of Kovel, I checked Ensko IV and found no mention, though they did list Hays as a freeman in 1769, but with no connection to Myers. I moved on to "Elegant Plate", a two volume catalogue of the collection of the Mus. of the City of NY, which has decent bios of NY smiths. Learned a great deal about Myers, but no mention of Hays, though Halstead got a sentence.
Back to Kovel to check the sources they cite, thirteen in all, including Ensko I, II & III. Bigelow's 1917 "Historic Silver of the Colonies' was amongst those cited and the only one on hand. The book illustrates some silver Torah finials made by Myers for the Touro Synagogue in Newport RI, and notes that they are "engraved on the stems Hays & Meyers from whom perhaps they were a gift".
At this point, feeling intrigued and a little desperate to discover the existence, or nonexistence, of Hays & Myers, I gave google a shot. As a quoted query, no returns, but the pair of names, unquoted, yielded some juicy genealogical info.
Rachel, little sister of Myer Myers, married Moses Michael Hays in 1766 and the couple moved to Newport RI in 1769.
With this bit in place, it would seem that the Torah finials were made by Myers and presented to the synagogue as a gift, from him and his brother-in-law Hays, as an intro into the new community for the young couple. That some early 20th chronicler of American silver marks took note of the engraved names on the Torah crowns and confused those names with the H&M of the Halstead & Myers maker's mark. And that this error was then propagated through thirteen books on American silver marks, not including Bigelow, but counting Kovel. The theory is plausible, but is it correct? I am hoping you can provide or find the answer.
The point of all this is that all of the books and websites we use contain misinformation, it is the nature of compilation. By your reasoning all of the books cited by Kovel for the Hays & Myers attribution should become doorstops for providing "bad knowledge". By my reasoning, any source that contains much more information than misinformation has its value and place. Even misinformation has its value, if it's out there it can be looked at, evaluated, and hopefully corrected. Tonight, page 175 of Kovel's, information or misinformation, certainly opened an interesting door.
Regards, Tom
ps. That said, dammit, I have to eat crow now. Just checked prices at amazon and used Enskos are half the price of used Kovels. By all means, go with Ensko, it is certainly a better book.
.
Thanks for the tip, gave it a shot but my door saddles are too high and the book too thin.
Not one to ignore an open book, a glance at page 175 yielded some interesting information, a partnership between Andrew Hays & Myer Myers ca. 1770.
18th Century American silversmiths are not a subject that I know a great deal about, but Myer Myers is a famous name and I'd even heard of his short partnership with Benjamin Halstead, but Hayes, nah.
Knowing the limitations of Kovel, I checked Ensko IV and found no mention, though they did list Hays as a freeman in 1769, but with no connection to Myers. I moved on to "Elegant Plate", a two volume catalogue of the collection of the Mus. of the City of NY, which has decent bios of NY smiths. Learned a great deal about Myers, but no mention of Hays, though Halstead got a sentence.
Back to Kovel to check the sources they cite, thirteen in all, including Ensko I, II & III. Bigelow's 1917 "Historic Silver of the Colonies' was amongst those cited and the only one on hand. The book illustrates some silver Torah finials made by Myers for the Touro Synagogue in Newport RI, and notes that they are "engraved on the stems Hays & Meyers from whom perhaps they were a gift".
At this point, feeling intrigued and a little desperate to discover the existence, or nonexistence, of Hays & Myers, I gave google a shot. As a quoted query, no returns, but the pair of names, unquoted, yielded some juicy genealogical info.
Rachel, little sister of Myer Myers, married Moses Michael Hays in 1766 and the couple moved to Newport RI in 1769.
With this bit in place, it would seem that the Torah finials were made by Myers and presented to the synagogue as a gift, from him and his brother-in-law Hays, as an intro into the new community for the young couple. That some early 20th chronicler of American silver marks took note of the engraved names on the Torah crowns and confused those names with the H&M of the Halstead & Myers maker's mark. And that this error was then propagated through thirteen books on American silver marks, not including Bigelow, but counting Kovel. The theory is plausible, but is it correct? I am hoping you can provide or find the answer.
The point of all this is that all of the books and websites we use contain misinformation, it is the nature of compilation. By your reasoning all of the books cited by Kovel for the Hays & Myers attribution should become doorstops for providing "bad knowledge". By my reasoning, any source that contains much more information than misinformation has its value and place. Even misinformation has its value, if it's out there it can be looked at, evaluated, and hopefully corrected. Tonight, page 175 of Kovel's, information or misinformation, certainly opened an interesting door.
Regards, Tom
ps. That said, dammit, I have to eat crow now. Just checked prices at amazon and used Enskos are half the price of used Kovels. By all means, go with Ensko, it is certainly a better book.
.
Charles,
In an attempt to split off your question on English hallmark references and move it to the British sterling forum, I made your original post disappear from this thread, apologies. Below is the text.
---------------------------------
"....Just checked prices at amazon and used Enskos are half the price of used Kovels. By all means, go with Ensko, it is certainly a better book. ---Tom"
......................................
Thanks Tom!
I checked abe.com and located Ensko's English Silver 1675 to 1825 and American Silversmiths & their marks. I called the store after Googling their name and ordered both (used in very good condition) for $35.50 including shipping. Seemed like a good price to me. I can't wait to get them!
Who did English silver and their marks after 1825?
Thank you,
Charles
.
In an attempt to split off your question on English hallmark references and move it to the British sterling forum, I made your original post disappear from this thread, apologies. Below is the text.
---------------------------------
"....Just checked prices at amazon and used Enskos are half the price of used Kovels. By all means, go with Ensko, it is certainly a better book. ---Tom"
......................................
Thanks Tom!
I checked abe.com and located Ensko's English Silver 1675 to 1825 and American Silversmiths & their marks. I called the store after Googling their name and ordered both (used in very good condition) for $35.50 including shipping. Seemed like a good price to me. I can't wait to get them!
Who did English silver and their marks after 1825?
Thank you,
Charles
.