Can anyone help identify the craftsman and when this item was made?

[Nata37]

Hello! Can anyone help identify the craftsman and when this item was made?

[Qrt.S]

As to your question most likely yes, BUT!
Please show a better picture of the maker's mark would be appreciated. As for now it is a blurry smudge! Alternatively tell us what letters or what the mark shows. Anyway, what can be told now is that it is from Bergen in Norway and made around 1850 in the more seldom used fineness of 13 1/3 lot. The zodiac mark for cancer tells us that it is made between 21.6-22.7 but the maker's mark...???
A wild guess at this stage would be that the maker's punch would be HIH and that would be Hans Joakim Hagelin or Hagelien dy. (the younger) born in Bergen 1821. He was active as from 1847, alderman 1866 and buried 17.12.1898.

[Silverstone]

Hi Nata 37,

usually a Bergen punch has a date:

1838 - 10 M


1840 - 6 M


1850 - 3 M


1853 - 6 M


1855 - 10 M



Qrt.S wrote:
"The zodiac mark for cancer tells us that it is made between 21.6-22.7."
Our forum member concerns to this punch:


Source: Per Bredo Østby, Bondesølvsmeder, 2012

Perhaps someone knows, if "69" means the date of the year or the cancer-punch on your snuff box.
Why do I ask?
I am not quite sure, but perhaps does this mean the month? f.ex. may
5
M

I have a lot of literature, but I cannot find the answer.

This is a punch of an old Bergen snuff box, where you can see the old zodiac-mark "taurus":

7 balls = Bergen
assayer - Jens Kahrs (1712-1781), Bergen
silversmith - Walter Stahle (1725-1791), 1771
date - zodiac "taurus" - 20.04.-22.05.


A useful list of the "zodiac-marks":

Source:
Björn Dich Røstad, 100 norske sølvstempler, Oslo 2007, p. 35

A "luktevannshus" from Bergen (1855), made by Lauritz Hammer (1812-1874), similar to yours, nata 37.



Source: photos© - privat

Regards
Silverstone

[Qrt.S]

Before the use of zodiac marks as from 1740-1765 numbers only were used. The zodiac mark indicates only an approximate time (date) span when the object was made. These zodiac marks were used 1766-1820. As from 1821 a number above the letter M-combination like Silverstone shows was introduced. The number indicates the Month.

Anyway, on the object in question you can see both the new and the old ("date") punch.
Why there is a minor conflict here I don't know. Old habits die hard? Cancer is mainly June/July while 5 is May only?!
Any good explanations, a repair or is the maker somebody else than the anticipated HIH?

Cannot do any better :-)))

[Silverstone]

Hi Nata37,
we are still waiting for a better photo.
So we can only guess:
Maybe, or, perhaps...

My five photos of the Bergen-hallmarks show the seven balls for Bergen, the months “number - line - M” and the years, e.g. 38 = 1838.

All five examples reinforce my view that your box can be dated with 1869.
Because of your unclear photo, it could also be the year “60” = 1860.

Correction: 2. Photo - 1841!
This is the snuff box from Bergen, June 1841:


Regards
Silverstone

[Qrt.S]

It is quite possible that that "69" would be the year mark (likely 1869) like Silverstone also anticipates. The reason why I wrote "cancer" was that the year mark has very often a round shield, but here the shield is rectangular. In addition, I happen to found another row of punches from Hagelin and there the year mark was in a rectangular shield. Therefore I withdraw my statement of it being "cancer". It must be the year mark. This explains the mismatch with the dates...sorry!

But is the maker the anticipated HIH or somebody else is still open until better photos are shown!

But dear Silverstone, mind my asking isn't this object a "luktevannshus", but not a snuff box? (Just asking!)

[Silverstone]

©Qrt.S,
thanks. Just ask!

It is a “Luktevannshus”!
I know that the Norwegian name for this silver box is "luktevannshus".
Here are some terms in different languages.

Norway
Luktevannshus - Duftwasser-Haus
Hodevannshus - Region Østlandet - Kopfwasser-Haus
Slavanshus - Region Vestlandet - Schlagwasser-Haus
Svampehus - Schwammhaus

Danmark
Hovedvandsæg - Kopfwasser-Ei
Balsambøsse – Balsamschachtel
Bisamæble – Bisamapfel
Desmerknop - Desmerdose
Slåvannssæg - Schlagwasser-Ei
Tønderæg - Tønder/Tondern-Ei
Amageræg - Amager-Ei

Schweden
Luktdosa - Riechdose

Germany
Riechdose

This is the luktevannshus from Bergen, March 1850.



Regards
Siverstone

[Silverstone]

In addition:
It is important to know, that many of these thems do not belong to a Bergen-luktevannshus!

There are a lot of diffentent types of silver cases, which have nothing to do with the norwegian boxes:
e.g.
Balsambøsse
Bisamæble
Desmerknop
Amageræg
Fiskeæg

Silverstone