Irish provincial tongs

[Silverquestion21]

Hi there, pls see attached pics of an Irish provincial tongs. Looking to verify the maker - Timothy Conway, Thomas Cooksey? All ideas welcome. Thanks

[scorpio]

Not sure offhand. Never heard of Thomas Cooksey. Timothy Conway (1783-1803) used TC with no dot between the letters and silver I've seen credited to him also had STERLING on it too. Only other TC in my Provincial Irish Silver reference books is a Cork silversmith, Thomas Cumming (1779 or 1789 depending on Bennett or Cork Silver reference books), but he apparently used TC with no dot as well and I never heard of him before or seen any silver by him.

[scorpio]

The cut off edges on the maker's mark do look like those on Timothy Conway's TC mark so perhaps T.C is a variation he used but I can't find any silver with it.

[Silverquestion21]

The cut off edges on the maker's mark do look like those on Timothy Conway's TC mark so perhaps T.C is a variation he used but I can't find any silver with it.

Thank you - I can see one piece attributed to Conway online that seems to have the dot (maybe):

(source:
(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )
As for Cooksey, I can only see this probable example:
(source:
(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

[scorpio]

Would be interesting to know where Kinghams obtained the name Thomas Cooksey from. This name does not exist in any Irish silver reference book including the very detailed one composed for the 2005 exhibition 'Cork Silver and Gold Four Centuries of Craftsmanship'. Nor does it appear in either of Douglas Bennett's books on Irish silver or in Cecil C. Woods treatise 'The Goldsmiths of Cork' (an old list but fairly comprehensive).

Cooksey is not mentioned in 'A Celebration of Limerick Silver' either or any other Irish Provincial silver reference source.

I don't think that is a dot. If it is, it's not in same position as the one on your tongs. Could be just a well used maker's stamp as I see that distorted T in another photo too.

Anyway, I should have noticed it before now but I believe the mark on your tongs is T.G not T.C. The serif is clearly horizontal not angled upwards. The only references to an Irish Provincial maker with those initials are:

Thomas Cooper Greaves 1781-1825 (Collecting Irish Silver by Bennett - Cork section - TG mark). Never heard of him and can't find any trace of him elsewhere.

Thomas Garde (briefly mentioned in Cork Silver and Gold and in this link: viewtopic.php?t=14982 as a Cork jeweller) but nothing else showing for him.

Jackson's marks on Cork Plate, page 716, references a bright cut silver tongs with the marks TG STERLING TG and lists it as Unindentified. No dot on the mark though.

Maybe someone else here can offer more insight into your tongs.

[Essexboy Found]

Hello, if you are stumped for a T.C maker, could it be "T.G"? When I looked at one of the high mag images, I did think "G".

Fishless

[dognose]

Hi,

Just wondering as to why the assumption that these tongs are Irish?

Trev.

[scorpio]

Well, it might be given the style of the engraving and lack of other marks or it might not be given there is no trace of an Irish silversmith using a T.G mark like this. Guild records of Cork goldsmiths were lost or destroyed ages ago and while much work has been done to complete lists of makers using other sources, perhaps some remain unknown. I own an Irish Provincial nutmeg grater from a silversmith believed to have lived in the Kinsale/Cork area in the mid 18th century (refer https://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=37861 ) but who is not listed in reference books. Many Irish Provincial pieces lack one of the various Sterling marks so that in itself is not a deciding factor. Same for the fact that shell pattern bowls on tongs were popular here but there are many with plain bowls too.

Would be interesting to see images of the bow and its engraving and also a note of the tong's length as Irish tongs are said to be a bit longer than English and Scottish ones.

If it's from further afield, I have no idea. Who do you think it is by and where from Trev?

[dognose]

I've no idea. I was just curious as to why the OP appeared so certain this was Irish Provincial. Maybe there is some provenance regarding the piece?

Trev.

[Silverquestion21]

I've no idea. I was just curious as to why the OP appeared so certain this was Irish Provincial. Maybe there is some provenance regarding the piece?

Trev.

Hi there, sharing additional images of the tongs here:

















I suspect the tongs are Irish but I don’t know the provenance - I acquired the tongs from a gentleman who purchased them in an auction in Midleton, a town in south-eastern County Cork (no detail in listing.)

[scorpio]

Midleton is a small town in Co. Cork about 23 km east of Cork City. So yes, that does make it much more likely the tongs are Irish Provincial from Cork or Cork area (Youghal or Kinsale for example).

I still have no idea who T.G is though and it does look like T.G rather than T.C.

[scorpio]

If bought at an auction in Midleton, I would think the tongs were included in general contents from a local house as most antique silver in Cork or vicinity is sold at Joseph Woodward & Sons auction house in Cork city.

The engraving looks rather basic compared to engraving on tongs from more prominent Cork city silversmiths.

If I can find my contact details for John Bowen, co-author of Cork Silver and Gold, I'll send him the photos and see if he knows of this maker's mark.

[Silverquestion21]

If bought at an auction in Midleton, I would think the tongs were included in general contents from a local house as most antique silver in Cork or vicinity is sold at Joseph Woodward & Sons auction house in Cork city.

The engraving looks rather basic compared to engraving on tongs from more prominent Cork city silversmiths.

If I can find my contact details for John Bowen, co-author of Cork Silver and Gold, I'll send him the photos and see if he knows of this maker's mark.

Thank you - appreciate your help

[Aguest]

::::: I have a pair of tongs that a noted tong expert said might be Irish due to the design on the arms, but finally when I looked in the "Spurious Marks On English Plate" article it became clear that my hallmark is extremely similar to the duty-dodger shown in the "66 articles" section that shows a hand-drawn illustration of the hallmark in question. :::::: (I'm still not 100% sure what to make of my tongs, the pics did not survive The Great TinyPic Purge Of 2020, so unfortunately the pics are not there right now)

::::: Although I did not find your hallmark in the article, and I don't have enough experience to sat that the mark in question is actually a spurious mark, is there a more complete listing of the hallmarks considered "spurious" other than the "Spurious Marks On English Plate" article that is archived on this website? :::::::