Cyrillic KB on St Petersburg stick-pin

[Sebastian]

I am hoping that Postnikov or other Russian expert can tell me who the maker is of this pre-1896 St Petersburg stick-pin.
I have not been able to find an image of a maker's mark of cyrillic KB to compare with, although I have seen reference to a Karl Bok, so that could be a possibility.
There are also some marks on the shank but they are very worn from use.
Can you help please?

[Postnikov]

Hi -

KB in an oval is the mark of Karl Werlin 1871-1878, a wellknown master form St. Petersburg.

Regards
Postnikov

[Sebastian]

Dear Postnikov, could you look again at your attribution of the maker? I have been able to get hold of the stick-pin again and take a photo of the mark on the shank as well, and it agrees pretty well with the photo I posted before. I show expanded images of both marks.
I cannot make cyrillic KV from it, however much I try. It looks to me to be cyrillic KB. Do you mean that Karl Werlin, alias Karl Verlin, also called himself Karl Berlin? Best regards

[Postnikov]

Hi -

I do not see your problem! The mark reads clearly as KB, from St. Petersburg. The cyrillic alphabet reads KB as Latin KW. Karl Werlin´s initials are KW and not Karl Verlin or Berlin.
Please be so kind and look at an cyrillic alphabet to recognice the different letters and their use - example: B=W, Russians write Wictor, we write Viktor!
Б=B! Берлин=Berlin!

(admin edit - unnecessary & unpleasant comment deleted)

Here an official mark from Karl Werlin - he signed also with KW.



Regards
Postnikov

[Qrt.S]

For some reason this question has slipped my eyes, probably the Summertime, but better late than ever. I do see your problem Sebastian. I have tried to fix the photo and I don't see KB nether in Cyrillic nor in Latin. But what I do see is КБ (Latin KB) and that has nothing to do with Karl Werlin (Cyrillic KB, Latin KV(W)). Now you would have several possibilities. But I don't see any assayer's mark which makes the whole thing a bit dubious. If no assayer's mark is to find we might have a problem, a non-assayed Russian object is strange indeed. The only explanation might be that the stick-pin is very small, but...? How big actually small is it?

[Juke]

Hi!

Just a thought, we might have here a case were the assay mark is actually under the pin. As has been discussed earlier the assay marks were stamped on separate parts and unfinished. The silversmith first marked the two separate parts before the assaying and after the assaying the pin has been solved together and the assay mark could then be under the pin. So thereby it is marked according to the regulations.

Regards,
Juke

[Qrt.S]

Yes, that is one possibility and Sebastian mentions that there are worn marks on the needle.
Here is another explanation: Between about 1826-1876 St: Petersburg assay office marked small objects with a small city mark only, the anchors and the specter. The reason was that there were no space for bigger marks. According to the rules "pins" and brooches could/should be marked on the needle/pin.

[Sebastian]

Qrt.S, thank you for joining the discussion on the marks on the St Petersburg pin. The marks on the needle of the pin are a bit worn but hopefully you can see that there is a maker's mark, the same as I've shown before, and a small combined town mark with assay, looks like 80. There is no assay master's initials. Does this help? Can you identify the maker from this information please?

[Qrt.S]

I'm sorry, there are too many alternatives, at least 7 КБ:s at that time in StP. And not knowing more about their backgrounds ( I don't) it is impossible to even guess which one it is or isn't or is it any of them at all. Remember that lots of documentation was lost and destroyed as unnecessary during the turn of the century. All I know is that they were goldsmiths and some of their addresses in StP. It would only be pure speculations...sorry

Qrt.S