Identifying Mark on Jays Coffeepot

[zafer]

I acquired a silverplate coffeepot from Jame Jays, perhaps made around the late 1890s. I am having trouble identifying the mark at the bottom of the pot. It is a square with an X or cross inside. It looks similar to the Edinburgh import mark, but that is all I could find. Any help or information on the production would be much appreciated. There are no other marks on the item that I could find.

Bottom of the pot:


Image of pot:

[user701]

It's not a coffee pot, it is a chocolate pot.

Not sure about the X, will leave to others more knowledgeable to reply.

[zafer]

Ah yes, that makes more sense. I think I confused it with some Arabic coffee pots I have seen with a side handle and spout.

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

To my knowledge, James Jay were retailer silversmiths, jewellers and pawnbrokers only, I'm not aware that they have any manufacturing facilities for producing holloware, such as your chocolate pot. The origin of your pot is likely with one of the Sheffield or Birmingham manufacturers who would, depending on the size of the order, apply the retailer's mark only. Such marking would ensure that purchaser of say, a teapot, would return to that establishment for a perfect match when they wanted to add a milk jug and sugar bowl, and not shop around at other stores.

The 'Cross' mark would identify the workman who actually made the item and was stuck so that he was paid, and to identify him in the event of any problem with the item.

Your dating is accurate. James Jay, who were established prior to 1865 at 366, Essex Street, purchased the business, including the pledges, stock and remainder of the lease, at auction, of Richard Attenborough's huge pawnbroking business located at 142 & 144, Oxford Street, London, for the sum of £24,000 in 1887.

James Jay appears to have died in the mid 1890's, and the firm was continued by his nephew, James Charles Jay, who appears to have run the Oxford Street premises, and Robert William Jay, who ran the Essex Street premises. They became a limited liability company on the 4th May 1897, and it is likely that this event would be reflected in their mark.

Trev.

[zafer]

Thank you for this great information. Are there any resources that list the workman marks, or is that not typically known?

[dognose]

To my knowledge the marks that identity those workmen were unfortunately never recorded.

Trev.

[Essexboy Fisher]

Hello, it was a good while ago when I bought a spoon I really wanted, but 2 more spoons marked as shown below came with it. I put researching the electroplate spoons' history and manufacturer on the back burner for while, but the as often occurs with me, the flame went out.



That was until 17 months on when I saw a teaspoon box silk with spoons and a composite image of that is shown below. So now I had a chunk more information to go on.



First regarding the spoon we just have a "criss cross", pictorial mark and "Jays". The circular mark with the crossed arrows is a trademark (previously belonging to "Creswicks") that W.Hutton & Sons Ltd, the large Sheffield silver and electroplating company acquired around 1900. Another more obvious W.Hutton & Sons mark is shown in our Silverplate reference section and at the below link.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/515 ... ea58_b.jpg

Unlike with Zafer's chocolate pot, here we have the Hutton mark as a strong indication of a retailing business.
Also, if the spoon box and the spoons were always together, this was also retailing as the 1931 spoons were made by W.Hutton & Sons Ltd. More retailing is shown below with the next 2 electroplate items. Note the trefoil mark with the 3 stars. We can tell "Barker Brothers Silversmiths Ltd" of Birmingham made the items. The extra small bottom mark is a example mark from a spoon by "Barker Brothers".



We know from what Dognose wrote earlier in this post
"James Jay, who were established prior to 1865 at 366, Essex Street, purchased the business, including the pledges, stock and remainder of the lease, at auction, of Richard Attenborough's huge pawnbroking business located at 142 & 144, Oxford Street, London, for the sum of £24,000 in 1887.
James Jay appears to have died in the mid 1890's, and the firm was continued by his nephew, James Charles Jay, who appears to have run the Oxford Street premises, and Robert William Jay, who ran the Essex Street premises. They became a limited liability company on the 4th May 1897,...."
It seems they only stayed officially as the Jays for a short while as by 1904 they had become "Jay, Richard Attenborough & Co Ltd".
The 1865 James Jay's business noted by Dognose was as a pawn broker just as the Richard Attenborough's business had been. The Post Office London Directory, 1882. [Part 3:) shows this and my my what a lot of "Attenboroughs" there are as well.



Now I am going to politely put a slightly different spin on Dognose's information. I believe James Jay may have already owned or more likely leased the 144 Oxford Street premises before the 1887 date. Evidence for my thoughts is suggested in the Post Office London Directory 1885, Part 4 when here as "Diamond Merchants" we find:
James Jay at 144 Oxford Street W and next door(?) at 142 we find Richard Attenborough, acting also as a pearl merchant and "bureau de change".



The continuation of the Jays diamond business is proclaimed on the silk of the spoon box. The "established 1796" likely relates to the early "Attenborough" part of the concern. You can understand that just "Jays" was used as the title of the business as this could have been more commercially catchy than "Jay, Richard Attenborough & Co Ltd". However they did use this name for the silver marks they registered with the London Assay Office.
I do have a bit more information but I will try to post that elsewhere on the Forum in a few days time, maybe.

Fishless

[zafer]

This was very enlightening to read. Thank you!

[Essexboy Fisher]

Hello again, I noted a bit of information that I think had not been mentioned in this thread. Jays sometimes used their own tradename on some of the electroplated ware they sold. They used the name "Majestic Plate". This is a double image and although the lower example mark is a bit blurred it appears to have a manufacturer’s mark as well as the Jays markings.



I think we can work out who made the lower electroplate item. Do we not see a pictorial "bugle" and the likely gothic style "JD&S" initials for John Dixon & Sons of Sheffield?

Now I need to say sorry to Dognose about Jays being at 144 Oxford St before 1887. The directory “Diamond Merchant” list posted previously is from 1895 and not 1885 as I suggested.



I have 1 more image, and of a silver mark this time. A London 1925 mark but I wonder who out of "Jay, Richard Attenborough & Co Ltd" and "Edward Barnard & Sons Ltd" is over striking who?



Fishless

Associated information regarding "Jays" can be found at the reference below.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=30091&start=880#:~ ... 22Jays%22)