spoon marked by 2 makers B and Schwartz

[Francais]

Back from a road trip with a few oddities. This spoon is obviously French but has some confusing marks. The second standard .800 mark is easy, and suggests a Strasbourg area maker. The Schwartz mark is probably the original maker. Except that if it was made after 1838 I would think it would have to have a lozenge shaped mark to conform. The lozenge shape mark is there, but it is a B with something over it. I can't find a similar mark in my lists. I also could only find one piece on the internet with the Schwartz as a maker, an auction which of course didn't show the marks. The second standard mark may have been struck over an earlier guarantee mark.
Does anyone have a list of later Strasbourg makers, mine ends with the very early 19th c.?
Maurice

[blakstone]

I'm not 100% certain as the mark is none too clear, but I think the lozenge mark might be that of Strasbourg maker Jean-Louis Buttner (1769-1840; Master 1786), whose post-revolutionary lozenge mark was ""B" surmounted by a stork. That would date it very narrowly to 1838-1840, but this is entirely possible and in keeping with the style. Schwartz (whomever he was) I presume was thus the retailer.

[Francais]

Hi Blakstone,
Long time no see, and I must admit you expertise is long missed.
I of course know of Buttner, but don't have a reference of his lozenge mark. Could you give me a reference or post a picture, perhaps with a loupe I could make a comparison.
Why do you think that he was the maker, and not the retailer? I would think it would be the other way around, but then I know earlier Strasbourg silver better.
Maurice

[blakstone]

Thanks for the kind words.

The only image I have of Buttner's lozenge mark is one I've snagged from an auction site and thus not kosher to post, but there's a written description of it on the French National Patrimony site (in French, of course).

I assume that the "B" is the maker's mark because, as you say, since the Revolution maker's marks were mandated by national law to be in the form of a lozenge. Certainly the name in full was the norm in Strasbourg in the 18th century, but I know of no exemption from the new law for Alsatians. So it's logical to assume that in 1838, "B" would be the maker's mark and "Schwartz" the retailer.

[Francais]

I found a fish slice last night, on line, with what they said was Buttner's mark. I couldn't find it this morning??? it showed an earlier mark that was not the same as mine, not just the thing above the B but the size and positioning too. I will look in my history later. I did think of two other possible explanations. One Schwartz was on the other side of the border, and the second I got from the French patrimoine site. They listed a piece made by some other silversmith which they said was retailed by Buttner. They were very particular in saying he was not an apprentice. That got me thinking. I know the Strasbourg silversmiths were not exempted, but they did continue to use there long name marks, as I have and have seen examples, as far as I remember always in conjunction with the lozenge mark. So I wonder if Schwartz could have apprenticed under Buttner or some other silversmith with a Name beginning with B.
I normally wouldn't spend this much time on a late spoon, but I have collected Strasbourg silver so long, it is a weakness.
Maurice

[Francais]

I realize I probably worded that poorly. I don't mean that Schwartz had a mark as an apprentice, but that he might have still been working for his former master, made the spoon added his mark and then B guaranteed the quality and supplied his mark.

[Francais]

I found the mark i saw last night. It is on a French site on a piece described as a butter or sardine shovel. The mark is on a piece earlier than 1838, so it is possible the mark changed later, but it is certainly not the same mark as on mine.

[Francais]

I think you are right. Schwartz was a retailer in Hagenau, but I can find nothing else about him, except he may have had a partner named Rose.
Maurice

[JayT]

The excellent catalogue of the silver collection at the Museum of Decorative Arts in Strasbourg reproduces Johann-Ludwig [Jean-Louis] Buttner’s pre-revolutionary mark, and describes his post-revolutionary mark that is found on a number of objects in the collection (goblet, sugar nips, pastry server, 4 salt cellars, 4 mustard spoons, teaspoon). The mark is described as le poinçon de maître losangique comprenant la lettre B surmontée d'une cigogne. If you clean out both the marks on your spoon you might be able to see if the lozenge mark meets this description, if the symbol beside the forehead of Minerva is that for Strasbourg, and if the bigorne mark on the other side of Minerva is the one for Strasbourg.

There is a trade card for J-L Buttner in the Strasbourg archives (inv. 77.004.0.20) showing that he was both a maker and retailer, trading at his shop called Aux deux cigognes.

The Schwartz mark is unknown to me, but I doubt that it is the mark of an apprentice, given the marking regulations for a master. If you know of any French examples of an apprentice using his own mark, I'd be very interested.

Hope this helps.

Ref: Les Musées de Strasbourg. Deux siècles d'orfèvrerie à Strasbourg. 2004.

[Francais]

It does have the mark for Strasbourg, I couldn't find my strong loop, but I found a substitute. I just presumed it was Strasbourg before. I am afraid the maker's mark isn't so much dirty as poorly struck. Whatever is above the B is a Rorschach test. The mark is not the same as the one I found on the internet but his post 1838 might not be the same as the pre-1838 mark I found. I am going to presume it is Buttner. I am afraid post 1838 French silver is not my forte. If you look at the listing under the first apprentice remark, I corrected the wording. I was not trying to say that the Schwartz mark was an apprentice mark, but a mark used by an ex apprentice, accepted as a silversmith, but still working for the master. It makes no difference as I found that Schwartz was evidently a retailer (or at least someone in the patrimoine department in France has him listed as one) in Hagenau as suggested by Blakstone. I have never heard of an active apprentice using a registered mark, and I am sure there never was one. However of course Journeymen did have marks that weren't registered, but allowed the master to pay them for work, or probably blame them for mistakes. You often see them on pieces from large shops, but most mean nothing to us today. I did read that in Paul Revere's day book identifies his nephew's work with a particular mark, I would be surprised if they couldn't be matched. I think this piece has gotten more attention than it is worth. I vote we put it to rest, although I wish there was a list of later Strasbourg silversmiths.
I knew the person in charge of Patrimoine in France, but I never had the guts or impudence or whatever to suggest they improve their sites. It is frustrating that so many marks are not pictured, even though on other sites they describe the marks on pieces in public collections.

[JayT]

Thank you for your comments regarding apprentice’s marks.

As for nineteenth century Alsatian silversmiths, no ready-made list exists to my knowledge. By the outbreak of WW I few Strasbourg silversmiths were left and the war for all intents finished off Alsatian production. Therefore a list of nineteenth century silversmiths working in Strasbourg could be made fairly easily and quickly by starting with the museum catalogue I referenced for the early part of the century and then consulting the Manuel du commerce, de l'industrie, des sciences, des arts et des métiers de la ville de Strasbourg and similar almanacs for later years.

Good luck in your research!

[Francais]

Ha!
Well I will keep a note on the references,thanks, but I think I will leave the research to others. I do think it is odd that no one has done a regional book on Alsace silver, recently. Most of the regional books cover the 18th c. but then do cover the marchand orfevres at the end. Usually for a few hundred dollars you can access a good list of marks. While Strasbourg silver generally sells at a premium above other areas, no one has done an up to date book.
I have done research but mostly on Mississippi Valley silver, and the French Islands. I think I have enough work left to last my remaining days.
But thanks for the references.
Maurice

[JayT]

My pleasure.

[jeffban]

I hope that this way of posting in is the most helpful to others and myself as I'd like to figure out what they are.

I thought that since I found this older inquiry about what I believe is a related piece that rather than start a new thread that this could enhance the older one.

I found a pair of spoons measuring approx 8 3/4 inches in length that are marked Schwartz and in searching here found the previous one. There are two things that are different, that being the letter S rather than B and the 2 I have also have insect markings on the topside behind the bowl. The form of the spoon seems very similar.



The 3 markings



The main difference in markings is that mine have an S with a star in the middle lozenge



And the (import/export?) mark



Again, if I've posted in a wrong manner I'll gladly take direction and start over.

Thanks, Jeff

[jeffban]

Well, I've studied the thoughts on the "B" marked spoon and tried to follow any avenues I could to see what my spoon might be and have hit a brick wall. Is there anyone who has any thoughts on who the maker and era of the spoon might be?

[Zilver2]

The S mark belongs to Joseph-Adolphe Solinger and Adolphe-Charles Solinger.
Probably brothers, jewellers active at Niort by the end of the XIXe century.
Joseph-Adolphe is mentioned in the registers of Niort silversmiths in 1877 and 1880.
His mark : the letter S surmounted by a star.

Reference : http://www.alienor.org/publications/poi ... /texte.pdf
Les poinçons depuis le Moyen Age et les poinçons des orfèvres niortais du XIXe siècle. Alienor.org Conseil des musées.

[jeffban]

That is a great path to follow. I found this from the same source:

http://www.alienor.org/collections-des- ... ph-adolphe

Very much the same maker mark. It would be interesting to find if the B marking, which may have a star above it also, has some regional relationship

Thank you for the information.