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Hi,

I have an old ladle which seems rather interesting. It is in the hanoverian pattern, but with an unusual bowl (can we call it 'scalloped'?). It is 34 cm long, with a 9cm diameter bowl and weighs 150 g.





My first question is about the name of such a ladle and its intended use?

It has 4 hallmarks which are not all clear:


The lion passant and the crowned leopard head are easily readable, so the London origin is almost sure, but the date letter and the maker mark are rather worn.
For what concern the date I have made the following analysis:
The hanoverian pattern shows that it was made after 1710, even the lion passant shows that it was made after 1719.
The lack of a duty mark would allow to date it before 1784.
The date letter should be read in the following direction :


If I am right on this orientation, then we can discard the period 1740-1755 because of the straight date letter outline. Considering the vertical bar on the left of the date letter, one can also discard the period 1756-1775 because the gothic style of the letter during this period does not fit this straight bar.
Thus we are left with 2 possible periods : 1719-1739 and 1776-1784.
In the latter, only the date letters b (for 1777-78) and h (for 1783-84) have a straight bar on the left.
In the first period (1719-1739) several letters have a straight bar on the left, but a closer look at the mark shows that the top of it is bent on the left. In that case only the letter b (for 1737-38) corresponds.
As a conclusion I guess that the ladle is either 1737 or 1777 or 1783.

The problem is that I cannot identify the maker mark, because it is not easily legible. Fortunately, the letters seems to be written in script, which is rather unusual. Could this help identify this maker, and consequently the date?
As shown in the following picture, it looks like is the first letter is a script G, but other letters could be possible.



Can someone help in commenting my analysis and identifying this maker?

Dinio
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Looks like George Smith III 1777 to me.

Miles
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Thank you Miles for the suggestion.

I agree with 1777 as the best candidate for the year. For the maker I have two marks mentioned for George Smith in Wyler's book, both with GS in script. But one was registered in 1739, and the other in 1782. Which one are you referring to? Or is it another one?

Any idea about the name and usage of such a ladle? Is it a current item?

Thanks again for your help.
Dinio
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I just realized that if George Smith III is the maker, and if he entered his mark in 1782, than the right date letter would be an h for 1783-84.

Dinio
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Dinio - I note you are using Wyler. Could I respectfully suggest that the purchase of Grimwade "London Goldsmiths 1697 -1837" would be a wise move ?
It's available at Amazon.co.uk at present at only £70 and would prove a
very good investment .
PS I am not on commission!
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Hi,

A George Smith III mark for comprasion.



Trev.
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Hi,

This is lesson to be learnt. After looking closely at the photo in the above post that I made, and comparing it with Dinio's example, I decided that it could not be George Smith III, the tail of the 'G' was quite different. Checking through Grimwades' produced closer matches for that 'G' in George Ibbet and Gawen Nash. It was at that point that I remembered a comment made by 'Buckler' in another thread, about silversmiths registering a punch, but when the time comes for the smith to replace his punches, he did not always re-register them, sometimes even when there was significant differences to the original punch.
By an extraordinary stroke of luck, I had by me an example of George Smith III's work dated 1777, the photo in the above post was an example from 1780, and we can now see how the mark has altered and also how your set of marks would have looked.



Dinio, the ladle could never have been 1783, by that time bottom marking had been discontinued (with the exception of special requests) and top marking was normal. Also GS III entered the script mark at Goldsmiths Hall on the 1st February 1774.
The mark in 'Wyler' for 1739 refers to George Smith I and the 1782 entry is an error.

Take 'Buckler's' advice, invest in Grimwade, Miles was correct right from the start.

Regards Trev.
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Thank you Trev for these very interesting comments, and it is very impressive to see exactly the same set of marks than on my ladle! So the identification is fully done. I still wonder if someone knows if such a big ladle with this kind of bowl is usual for that period. I do not have equivalent examples of this size in France. I also question myself about its usage.

Then I would like to apologize for not being equipped with the necessary references for British sterling. I mainly collect French silver and I have several books dealing with it including Beuque's, Nocq's, some books for provincial silver, and a lot of auctions catalogues. I used them several times to answer members questions on the French forum. When I come across foreign silver pieces, I rely on Wyler's book which is not strictly speaking a reference, but helps me in the first identification steps. I also use this website which is a great resource for identifying foreign silver. And British silver is foreign for me as is German or Russian or Italian or Spanish... Should I collect British silver several times a month, which is not the case, I would probably consider buying Grimwade's book, which seems to be a must have. But I would also need to buy reference books for all over Europe and I am not so a serious collector to do so.

Except if it is considered inappropriate, I intend to continue asking the forum for its help in case I lack the right reference, until I have a serious collecting throughput for some country which will justify investing in reference books for the said country.

Obviously I would also accept any free spare Grimwade's, if it exists!

Thanks again for the help of the forum, which is a great tool.
Dinio
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Hi Dinio,
Wyler's "Book of Old Silver" receives a great deal of criticism and I've always thought this unjust.
The English section is reprinted from the second edition of "Jackson's Hallmarks" - 1921.
The German section is reprinted from Marc Rosenberg's "Der Goldschmiede Merkzeichen" - 1928
Both are respected references, the only drawback is that none of the information found in Wyler's has been updated with later findings. BUT, if one does not specialize in these areas of collecting/dealing and the expense of hundreds of dollars, pounds or euros for up-to-date references is not warranted or affordable, Wyler's can't be beat as a general reference. It still carries a great deal of accurate info and in these two areas, it is actually better than Tardy - all for a cost of about $8 for a used copy. It makes a lot of sense for the non-specialist to have a copy on hand - especially these days when one has the ability to check their findings on a number of internet websites such as this.

Regards, Tom

ps. I may be a little biased, bought my original copy from old man Wyler himself back in the early 80's. I felt very uncomfortable and out of place in his very upscale silver shop, not at all like the junk/antiques/thrift shops I was used to haunting. Without my asking, he took the time to give me a quick course on British hallmarks, encouraged me to learn more and insisted on signing the book.

pps. at 34cm. or 13 1/2 inches it would be a soup ladle, not uncommon at the time (for the rich) in Britain or America.
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Hi Dinio,

In no way did I mean to imply any criticism of your references, if I was, I would be a total hypocrite, for I have but very, very little in the way of French resources. My suggestion of the addition of Grimwades' to your references, would apply to anyone with an interest in London Silversmiths of this period, for it is a wonderful piece of work.

Keep posting in the Forum, your offerings are well received and are important as we all learn from posts such as yours.

Regards Trev.
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Hi all,

just for interest, George Smith III used several different script marks. I have a page on my web-site with some of them, with approximate dates. Also Goldsmiths Hall have a record of lots of forged makers marks from articles they have seized. Among them is the script "GS" - seen on work "apparently" dated between 1729 and 1809. I am not for one minute suggesting that this item is forged, however there are certainly a variety of George Smith III maker's marks to consider.

Regards
.

Hi,

Some of the forged marks that tongtwister is refering to, can be found at:

http://www.925-1000.com/a_Spurious1899.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Trev.
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