www.925-1000.com

Hello,

I have old gold cufflinks with a clear goldsmith mark of CM in a circle on the clasp and a difficult to photograph hallmark below the clasp, which looks similar to the silver mark (see fox below), whereby the hallmark has a letter "A" to the left of the snout and possibly a number 4 to the right of it, similar to the fox hallmark yet smaller.

Questions

1. Is it possible that a goldsmith uses a silver hallmark?
2. Are there any extensive goldsmith hallmark lists out there?
3. Is CM tracable to any particular goldsmith.
4. Does anyone know what the name of this type of clasp is? It snaps open and shut but has no visible spring.

Thanks in advance.

S








.

Dear SwissSilverBuff,

Your post is old but if you are still seeking answers to your cufflinks, I offer the following...

1. Is it possible that a goldsmith uses a silver hallmark?
The mark that you have included in your images is a Austrian gold mark for small items. 1867-72 w/o the assay office mark at the fox's nose. If there is a letter mark there, it is 1872-1922.
2. Are there any extensive goldsmith hallmark lists out there?
There are several resources but as with the nature of the beast, it is hard to find one that is complete.
3. Is CM tracable to any particular goldsmith.
One that pops up for a CW in an oval fits the second time period as Karl Waschmann who is listed from 1900.
4. Does anyone know what the name of this type of clasp is? It snaps open and shut but has no visible spring.
I do not know the name or patent on this system but it functions on a tension mechanism.

Hope this helps (if you are still interested)

d
.

You bet I'm interested!

Thanks so much for your extremely helpful comments. This is what I love about this forum. I hope someday to be as helpful to other users as you and others have been to me.

S
.

I checked the marks again and the intials are clearly CM and not CW.

The fox nose has a letter A on it.

So I guess the A, like with silver, stands for Vienna.

But who could this CM be?
.

Neuwirth lists a Carl (Karl) Maurer, mark CM in rectangle. Goldsmith working 1877 to (I think) 1923 {"Gest. 22.2.1923 (70 Jahrig)}

Regards, Tom
.

Thanks Tom,

The CM is clearly in an oval so it doesn't look like Karl Maurer made them.

For the record.

Gest. in German means "Gestorben" = "died".

Jährig in German means "years old".

So Karl Maurer died on Feb. 22. 1923 at the age of 70.
.

Oval? make that Carl Mayr, working 1877-1903. In future, kindly take pity on those of us with failing eyesight and post larger images of the marks.

Regards, Tom
.

More than pity, I have great gratitude. Thanks so much for taking the time to help.

I have located a gold smith in Graz, Austria under the name of "Carl Meyr and son since 1830". I have already written to them to ask if they can confirm the providence of these cufflinks. They were by the way the ones I wore at our wedding.

S
.

Ooops. That was Carl Mayr, not Carl Meyr.

I will let you know if the present owner, unfortunately not a Mayr, replies.
.

Karl (Carl) Mayr & Co. (Comp.), Vienna, Gold wares factory 1872-…

Hello »SwissSilverBuff«

It seems to be that since 30 January 2010 you haven’t got any reportable news on yours search?

Some of yours former questions are already answered by »dnl« and »admin« Tom.

My contribution is only an addition for to get it clearer:

On yours first question » Is it possible that a goldsmith uses a silver hallmark? « No; not the goldsmith, but in the Assay Office they mark.

You’ve confirmed that the »fox 4« mark has an A as town indication — already »dnl« informed, that that »A fox 4« mark is the signification for to be struck 1872-1922.

(After the 1st World War has happen changes in the marking system of all countries of the former Austro-Hungary Empire on several, different dates. 1922 were made the changes in Austria. That’s the reason, why detailed guides of marks are oriented on this kind of cessions.)

On yours second question » Are there any extensive goldsmith hallmark lists out there? « Yes! But it’s a pity: Only Mrs. Waltraud Neuwirth is »The quick fox who jumped over the lazy dogs«!

She has published several Hallmark and Maker’s mark guides; in yours case, »dnl«, »admin« Tom, and I’ve used:

Source: Waltraud Neuwirth, »Wiener Gold- und Silberschmiede und ihre Punzen 1867-1922«, in 2 vol. ISBN 3-900282-00-5

On yours third question » Is CM traceable to any particular goldsmith? « you’ve got already from »admin« Tom the Name »Carl Mayr«.

From yours image isn’t sufficient clear, which maker’s mark is there struck — you’ve mentioned, that you own them. So I request you very kindly, to place now a very clear photo of this maker’s mark — for the future need to could see on what was the theme.

It would be nice, if you would also describe, which type of mark it is. Because in question there are three different marks registered.

Before I answer on these three different marks, please read my explanations on the Austro-Hungary Maker’s Mark System:

In »Neuwirth« for »Vienna« are registered a little bit more then 2,400 maker's mark. In the Austro-Hungary Empire, there were other Assay Offices too - and there were a lot of them; about 150 more or less. All of them have used the same scheme as they've used in Vienna.

Vienna assay office had a maker's mark scheme of seven main type of maker's mark's "frame" or cartouche:
I = horizontal rectangle
II = horizontal rectangle with clipped edges
III = horizontal oval
IV = horizontal rectangle with vertical notches in upper and lower part
V = horizontal oval with vertical notches in upper and lower part
VI = horizontal oval with horizontal notches on left and right side
VII = horizontal rectangle with horizontal notches on left and right side

For this 7 type's of cartouche's are 14 differences of upper case letter combinations:
1 = Antique letters
2 = Grotesque letters
3 = Antique letters, in between of them a centred pellet
4 = Grotesque letters, in between of them a centred pellet
5 = Antique letters, in between of them a centred vertical short stroke
6 = Grotesque letters, in between of them a centred vertical short stroke
7 = Antique letters, in between of them a hyphen
8 = Grotesque letters, in between of them a hyphen
9 = Antique letters, in between of them an x
10 = Grotesque letters, in between of them an x
11 = Free style Antique letters and Ligatures
12 = Ligatures in Grotesque letters
13 = Antique letters, in between of them an ampersand
14 = Grotesque letters, in between of them an ampersand

To could enlarge the possible amount of marks, came in force from Vienna assay office, regulation number »2172/1907«.

If a professional - from 1907 on - has solicitude for a maker's mark, he had especially to mention in his solicitation, if he like to get a mark out of this new enlarged scheme = Italic scheme. If yes, then he had to mark his solicitation with N = new. Otherwise he has got one in old scheme.

Nr. 1 until 10, 13 and 14 (except 11 and 12 !): In regulation »2172/1907« is fixed, that primary types of cartouche I, II, IV and VII have to be rhombic and letters have then to be in italic. In that case maybe were also in use rhombic pellets, strokes, hyphen, x, and ampersand as well?

Some company and workshop had - separately - also a symbol as her mark, like J.C. Klinkosch knights helmet (Neuwirth, vol. II, p. 372, # 2406).

There were also some more differences possible, e.g. in relief (table 12) and incise (without cartouche).

In a register for every letter combination of Antique and Grotesque letters were remark the name of applicant; e.g. one sheet = AA in Antique, another one = AA in Grotesque …

(This is in short a visual excerpt of Neuwirth, vol. I, p. 66 table 11 [Type scheme of maker's mark] and p. 67 table 12 [JB in Antique])

A CM mark, type III-1 is registered for:
MOSER, CAROLINE
Vienna VI, Mariahilferstraße 45 (1872-1873)
[I guess, that she hasn’t made yours cufflinks]
[N1, num. 394; vol. II, p. 69, 312]

A CM mark, type III-2 is registered for:
MAYR, CARL
[N1, num. 395; vol. II, p. 60, 312]

A C·M mark, type III-3 is registered for:
MAYR, CARL
[N1, num. 396; vol. II, p. 60, 312]

[Then follows on p. 60 the description of the Karl Mayr & Co.]

MAYR, KARL (CARL) & CO. (COMP.)
Gold-, Silber- und Juwelenfabrik
VII, Schottenfeldgasse 30 (1877-1879);
VII, Richtergasse 7 (1880-1881);
VII, Dreilaufergasse 11 (1882-1899);
VII, Hermanngasse 5 (1908-1922)
Inhaber: Louis Berger (1908-1922)
Erzeugung: „Weißjuwelen, Goldjuwelen,
Goldbijouterie, Goldringe, Ketten und Ket-
tenbijouterie, Dosen, Feuerzeuge, Bon-
bonnieren“ (Kalender 1898)
Teilnahme an der Jagdausstellung Wien
1910: „ ... stellt einige Feuerzeuge in
Gold mit ganz neuer patentierter Zünd-
vorrichtung aus, auch hübsche Neuheiten
von Jagdstücken, wie Medaillons und
Knöpfe, alles in Gold ... „ (Fachzeitung
1910)

MAYR, KARL (CARL)
Juwelier und Goldschmied
(Firma Carl Mayr & Co.)
Gewerbeverleihung: 1872
VII, Dreilaufergasse 11 (1898);
VII, Hermanngasse 5 (1900-1903)

Translation:

MAYR, KARL (CARL) & CO. (COMP.)
Gold-, Silver- and Jewellery factory
VII, Schottenfeldgasse 30 (1877-1879);
VII, Richtergasse 7 (1880-1881);
VII, Dreilaufergasse 11 (1882-1899);
VII, Hermanngasse 5 (1908-1922)
Owner: Louis Berger (1908-1922) [here you must search]
Production: „White [Gold] Jewels, Gold Jewels,
Gold Jewellery, Golden rings, Chains and
Chains Jewellery, Cases, Vesta cases, Bon-
bonnieren“ (Calendar 1898)
Exhibitor in the Vienna Hunting-Exhibition
1910: „ ... exhibited some Firelighter in
Gold with a totally new, patented ignition
mechanic, also pretty nice Noveltys
of Hunters Accessoires, as like Medaillons
and Buttons [and Clasps too], all in Gold ... „
(Jewellery Professionals Journal 1910)

MAYR, KARL (CARL)
Jeweller and Goldsmith
(in Company of Carl Mayr & Co.)
Professional licency : 1872
VII, Dreilaufergasse 11 (1898);
VII, Hermanngasse 5 (1900-1903)

On yours fourth question » Does anyone know what the name of this type of clasp is? It snaps open and shut but has no visible spring? « has »dnl« also already explained, that this »open-close« effect is based on »tension« (in German: »Drehstabfeder« oder »Torsionsfeder«).

This kind of mechanism you could find by cigarettes cases, already before 1900 — and e.g. in the by Dr. Ferdinand Porsche developed »Volkswagen« axles. That wasn’t his invention — but an intelligent application of an already known principle.

Maybe only Professionals would have a special word for this kind of innerspring-cufflinks?

Kind regards silverport