www.925-1000.com

Can anyone help ID this?
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Hello, this is Ernst Carl Friedrich Schwartz (sic) from Kiel in northern Germany. Born 1798, master in Kiel 1832 - 1867, died 1885. The engraving from 1892 must have been added later. It is silver, "11 L" stands for 11 Lot, roughly 688/1000 parts fine. Best wishes, Bahner

Thank you so much!

11 Loth is a very rare alloy in Germany. Commonly used was 12 or 13 Loth (sometimes 10 Loth) before 1888.

yes but Kiel was part of Denmark and one can see the look from Sønderjylland (nordschlesvig) in design.
11 lødigt was permitted in Denmark when prober marked.
This Kiel silver schmidt was proberly educated in accordance to danish standards.

My suspicion is that someone took a circa 1870 spoon and tarted it up nicely with jewels and engraving in 1892 for use as a wedding present. Can anyone refute this? Does anyone know of comparable jeweled work from circa 1870?

Hello,
the usage of this stones (or better red glas / glass drip) was very common in Schleswig-Hostein beginning from the late 18. century (Stierling p. 233 ff.) until to the 20.century. The spoon is older then 1870. I think it was surely made before 1850, probably about 1840.
Kind regards,
Ringo

Ringo, thank you very much. I am still very new to this area, and am frankly stunned by the information you have provided. It seems such a "modern" and "arts and crafts" type of sensibility, that to think it might date from the 1840's will necessitate a re-think on my part, and re-education. It seems that the roots of popular decorative non-royalist design in silverware run much deeper than I imagined, at least in Denmark. If you or anybody else have any links on the internet that display related pieces from a similarly early time period, I would be most appreciative. I have an enduring fascination with the roots of modernism.

Welcome to the Club of the Curious

Hello Will K

Welcome to the Forum of »925-1000«; but also welcome to the Club of the Curious.

I don’t know yours life experiences — if you’ve already in an early age said »me«, then you are also now being able to making good steps of enlarging yours personal knowledge. But don’t wait until some of us pinpoint down: http:www…

In nearly each Museum (e.g. of Archaeology, or Ethnography) you could find back until the Stone Age examples of an “early” Modernism; in form of Functionalism = a step nearer to their future.

Study also e.g. the »Shaker’s«.

If you are fascinated from the tendencies in the beginning of XX century, like also e.g. »cubism«, then look back to similar tendencies in the Italian Renaissance period = a half millennium earlier.

Functionalism or Modernism is only an Art History classification for tendencies in the beginning of XX century.

Don’t look only on Royal Danish Silverware itself — but widen yours knowledge also by studying techniques of their production.

Also look on stylistic tendencies and economic influences before and during the European »Biedermeier« (Napoleonic wars, »Der Kongress tanzt« [Vienna Congress 1815], meteorological circumstances in 1815-1816-1817, economic decline, liberation tendencies, mercantilism, railways 1825 in England, 1835 in Germany …).

»Me« I wish you good luck for yours personal research!

Kind regards silverport

Must admit to being confused by the phrase, "popular decorative non-royalist design in silverware".....

I have a near lifelong interest in both Arts & Crafts and Modernist design, and can understand your seeing some connection, though I don't really see it myself - spoons from the region with similar engravings and form would date back as far as the mid to late 17th century (if I recall correctly) . To my thinking, good design often just results from a basic functionality or aesthetic appeal, and while most design movements would indeed have some definite derivative roots in the past, suspect that the continued use of motifs, shapes, materials, etc. that are pleasing to the eye, and/or forms that are comfortable or practical in use have much to do with similarities to earlier designs. As silverport has suggested, research at museums would be a good step if you are indeed fascinated with Modernism - a trip to your local library would be quite helpful, one of my favorite books is Viennese Silver, Modern Design 1780-1918, which delves deeply into the roots of the Austrian Secessionist/Jugendstil movement. My first love in silver was mid 19th to mid 20th century American silver, so for me, Jewel Stern's Modernism in American Silver is another good reference.

The internet is a valuable resource, but is not any kind of substitute for in-depth reference books and, if possible, picking the brain of experts, along with the knowledge that comes with years of experience in handling and researching silver. My books are not available to me at the moment, but I can provide a bit of internet evidence for you that your theory concerning this spoon's design is unlikely: If you do a search for solv ske med flusser fra Nordtyskland, a few similar Northern German spoons should come up (I've also seen some with Danish marks). Probably the jeweled form I see most often would be hovedvandsægs (vinaigrettes), here is a link to the Museum of Southern Jutland showing one with similar glass sets (flusser): http://www.museum-sonderjylland.dk/SIDE ... meret.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; An image search for hovedvandsæg med flusser should pull up numerous pictures of the jeweled vinaigrettes.

~Cheryl

Hi -
here are some of the vinaigrettes dragonflywink mentioned:







Regards
Postnikov

I put up a hypothesis for demolition, and y'all did not disappoint. Thank you. And thank you, silverport,
for the welcome. I'll put up another overblown hypothesis at the end of this message, hoping that y'all
will do an equally fine shot of smashing it.

By way of introduction, I am a treasure hunter, not a scholar or collector. I do not hunt for monetary
gain, though if I ever decide to cash in, I'm sure I'll do quite well. I hunt for the intense pleasure it
causes me to be surrounded by objects of extraordinary beauty and power, and to acquire them at
a fraction of their market value. Over the years I suppose I have acquired a degree of expertise in
certain areas, tribal art and antiquities to name two, but mostly I just have fun lucking into wonderful
things.

I've always tended to avoid gold and silver things because it just seemed to me that that were too
many experts out there and too many reference guides for me to make any serious scores. But then
a while ago I lucked into what just may be the best souvenir spoon in the history of the world, as laughable
as that might sound. That got me interested generally in the populist spoons of the late 19th century, so
now I have a have a decent amount of knowledge in that area, but as of now only the very beginnings of
awareness of what came before.

When I on another occassion acquired the near-twin of the subject spoon a year or so ago, I made
little headway in researching it, never even correctly interpreting the mark as "11L". Even though mine
is not inscribed with a date, I tentatively assigned it to the spoon-crazed 1890's for what seemed to
me obvious reasons. So it is a pure joy for me to be told what y'all have told me, that my spoon is
circa 1840.

Cheryl, I don't blame you at all for being confused by my hastily manufactured phrase ""popular decorative
non-royalist design in silverware", but I'm going to stick with it, to an extent, with hopefully enough
clarifications that I'll be forgiven for manufacturing it in the first place.

And I think you're right that I really mangled things when I inserted the word "modernism" into the discussion,
a word that can be interpreted in just too many ways.

So, I'll try again: For me, there are two distinct strains in European art, the elitist strain (the stuff made for
the royals and the rest of the upper crust) and the folk/popular strain. I proudly confess my bias against
the elitist strain, the renaissance and rococo and baroque and victorian etc. That the middle classes
substantially adopted a dumbed-down version of this overly ornate aesthetic in the 19th century does
not made it any less repellant to me. I mean, obviously, I can appreciate the extraordinary craftsmanship
and technical achievements but, just like with a special-effects superhero movie, I retain the right to
hate it anyway.

On the other hand, let's take for example the average mid-19th century American coin silver spoon.
Yes, if I only saw one, I would undoubtedly admire its clean lines and naive folkish charm, but since
there's a million of them, I can't help but be drawn to the word "unimaginative".

So then, one possible definition of the word "modernism" is form following function plus just enough
innovation and style to make it interesting. For me, for example, some Shaker pieces pass this test,
and some don't, and some I'm not so sure either way.

And now that I've been exposed for the first time, thanks to Cheryl, to hovedvandsægs and
related early 19th century silver items from the German/Danish border region, while these objects may
or may not meet any reasonable definition of "modern", they still seem to me, in my present state of
knowlege/ignorance, to be most extraordinary in anticipating what was to flower in the popular arts in
the 1880's/1890's.

It's obviously the glass jewels that make all the difference. It's gives these pieces an in-your-face
quality simply not present, that I am aware of, in any other European or American silverware of the
time period. It's neither restrained nor respectful of tradition nor "tasteful". It's pure pop for now people.

So that's my new hypothesis for your consideration: That this jeweled German/Danish silver is 50-75
years ahead of its time in thumbing its nose at the elite and creating a purely pop style in silverware.

Commence firing.

Hi -
just to make clear that these Luktevannshus (Norway), Hovedvandsaeg (Denmark) and Riechdosen (Northgermany) were normaly no expensive objects. There are some exeptions for the rich but the common buyer was poor to very poor. It was given as an engagement present and kept as the only valuable posession one had. Nowadays they are very sought after and the prices are soring. What fascinates me most, is the history (2 lovers..) and the different ( many hundreds) styles, from 1715 - 1850, Regency 1715-40, Rokoko 1740-70, LouisSeize 1770-1810, Empire 1805-20 and Neoclassicistic 1820-50. A wide range!



Regards
Postnikov

Heh, must just be my own temperament and mindset, but just don't really see the form as "thumbing their noses" but more as the hoi polloi desiring their own touch of luxury, and can't say that it strikes me as "ahead of its time" either. As suggested by Silverport, you might consider looking into the Biedermeier style, inspired by the rise of the middle class and the "common man" - in the area of silver, the book I mentioned, Viennese Silver, Modern Design 1780-1918, covers the period and delves into the roots of Modernism, illustrating pieces from the early 19th century that many would swear were innovative designs from the early to mid 20th century. Personally, tend to lean to the cautious side when describing a piece as part of any particular movement or era (especially in lieu of marks, provenance, etc. to give it certain age), though some designs are clearly identifiable to a certain time, style, area of origin, etc. - classic designs in virtually all areas have been reproduced and reinterpreted for centuries.

Would very much like to see "what just may be the best souvenir spoon in the history of the world" - have been a collector of souvenir spoons for some 30 odd years, an area of much interest to me and always interested in seeing unique examples.....

Postinikov - I see cigarette cases, salt thrones, etc. in one of the pics, so assuming those are your vinaigrettes - and must admit to a bit of silver-envy, especially the scent-hearts (a form I find particularly appealing).

These pics are from my files, the illustrations of the old pieces are from Boesen & Bøje's Old Danish Silver, the Russell Wright soup bowl is from his American Modern china pattern, the Jensen silver is Sigvaard Bernadotte's self-named pattern.





~Cheryl

>> just to make clear that these Luktevannshus (Norway), Hovedvandsaeg (Denmark) and Riechdosen (Northgermany) were normaly no expensive objects. There are some
>> exeptions for the rich but the common buyer was poor to very poor.

Postnikov, thanks for the additional information, and for, I think, validating my point: that this type of silverware is an early example, and likely the earliest example,
of eccentric and populist silverware, a genre which wouldn't come into full flower till late in the 19th century.

>> Heh, must just be my own temperament and mindset, but just don't really see the form as "thumbing their noses" but more as the hoi polloi desiring their own touch of luxury, and can't say
>> that it strikes me as "ahead of its time" either.

Well, dragonflywink, I already caved in one respect, in acknowleging that my use of "modernism" unnecessarily confused the issue, but I won't cave on the "ahead of its time" claim. And I have one
strong piece of evidence on my side, with regard to the subject spoon, and that is that someone in 1892 gifted this 1840 spoon, WITHOUT ALTERATION, exactly as they would have gifted a
then-contemporary ornate and showy spoon. Compare that to the then-common alteration of relatively plain Georgian spoons into late Victorian berry spoons. To change my mind, you or someone
else is going to have to show me another genre of circa-1840 ornate, showy, populist silverware. Otherwise, this Hovedvandsaeg-type stuff stands alone and unique in "predicting" the "pop" gift and
souvenir spoons of the 1890's.

Hovedvandsæg was very expensive items. In the bottom the woman held a coin when going to church on sundays. The hovedvandsæg represented her most valuable item and should be seen by everyone - thereby showing what welth the family represented. The most decorated hovedvandsæg contain more than 100 stones.

Hello Sir »primitif«

Now it seems to me that you aren’t a »me« type.

Well now are using some other words to claim again:

» To change my mind, you or someone else is going to have to show me another genre of circa-1840 ornate, showy, populist silverware. «

Primary you stated: » My suspicion is that someone took a circa 1870 spoon and tarted it up nicely with jewels and engraving in 1892 for use as a wedding present. «

Now you state »WITHOUT ALTERATION«:

» And I have one strong piece of evidence on my side, with regard to the subject spoon, and that is that someone in 1892 gifted this 1840 spoon, WITHOUT ALTERATION, exactly as they would have gifted a then-contemporary ornate and showy spoon. «

To stylize an individual happening (1840 > 1892) to a general tendency is at least obscure.

Well, some times has an individual happening, e.g. on 28 June 1914 the kill of the heir Franz Ferdinand, for final a general tendency = 17 Million dead.

Again I claim from you: Search, found and sound the basics by yourself!

I haven’t time to take part in yours confusions.

Kind regards silverport

Everyone has their own opinion and mine simply differs from yours - I just have a hard time seeing something so typical of its own time and area of origin as any prediction of "the "pop" gift and
souvenir spoons of the 1890's". Later engravings and alterations to silver were pretty common practice, can't really see what the later inscription to D. Schnack and wife has to do with proving your hypothesis, but have no problem with your seeing it that way.....You might find in further research that, while souvenir spoons were a huge craze starting in the 1890s, they existed many years before then; and that most references date the start of the practice of "berrying" earlier spoons to the mid 19th century, continuing into the "late Victorian" era.

~Cheryl

I have discovered this post just now. It is highly inappropriate to compare Rasmus Jorgensen Brock and Sigvaard Bernadotte for Georg Jensen (if that was ment by posting their cutlery side by side).The beauty of design has no similarity, whatsoever.
Bernadotte was the son of Gustav Adolf VI, king of Sweden and brother of Ingrid, queen mother of Denmark. As a young man he wanted to become an actor but his father and grandfather didn't approve so he studied art history at Sweden's Uppsala University. He attended the School of Decorative Arts in Stockholm and became committed to designing practical, useful things that were stylish and beautiful not beautiful ornamental things with no purpose. At the age of 23, he began to design for the Georg Jensen Silversmithy. His designs were a departure from what was thought of as the Jensen style. He introduced clear cut disciplined forms common in modern Swedish taste to the Danish Silver tradition. His elegant and distinguished designs show a preference for geometrical figures, spheres, cylinders and funnels enhanced with engraved lines, profiles and soldered parallel fluting.
Bernadotte was a major figure in the field of Scandinavian industrial design and a leader in the Society of Swedish Industrial Designers and the International Council of Societies of Industrial Design.
In short, every single piece of silver made in Georg Jensen workshop by different designers is a piece of art. His designers were not trained in obscure workshops, they were highly educated artists.
Ivan

Fail to see anything "highly inappropriate" regarding the comparison of the design of the 1823 Brock flatware to the later pattern by Bernadotte, I see a clear similarity of design - if your own opinion differs, then that's just fine. They are both quite lovely and there was certainly no disrespect inferred, rather that simple classic and functional elements are not exclusive to modern design.

~Cheryl