www.925-1000.com

Hello, and my apologies in advance as I cannot get a clearer shot of the marks with my current camera. I bought this very pretty bracelet at a junk shop and would love to know its origin:





As you can see, I am a poor excuse for a photographer.

If I may describe the marks visible on the clasp,

- on the left is a cross with flared arms
- in the centre is the maker's mark M&S, in a serif typeface
- on the right is a sadly unidentifiable blob in a six- or seven-sided cartouche: to the immediate left of the blob is a tiny, but quite clear, capital A

I've looked through the very informative links and think the "M&S" might possibly be Mitchell & Son, but really I'm just flailing about. Any information or suggestions would be most appreciated!
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Hello and welcome to the forum.

I enhanced your pictures of the marks.
Just wondering if the mark on the right could be the Swiss St. Bernard mark used since 1995.
Hope someone else can help you with more information.



Pat.
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Thanks very much for taking the time to enhance the picture! I don't think that the Swiss mark is a contender, as I'm fairly sure the bracelet was made in the mid-to-late 19th century, but the mark is very similar to that one in shape. Interesting!
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Hi,
Even working with good images these marks are easily confused. Yours is the Austro-Hungarian lion head mark used on small articles, the number and letter within the mark will give you more information.
http://www.925-1000.com/Faustria_02.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards, Tom
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Interesting - so it's Austrian, rather than Scottish!

I'll move the question to the appropriate forum so as not to keep things off-topic here. Thanks very much for your guidance!
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(Actually, I just realised it's in the correct forum already)
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Hi Bisquit,

The cross could be the pictorial mark of the Viennese goldsmith Josef Zauza.

Look for the letter A in the lion head mark.

Best regards/JAKJO
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JAKJO wrote:Hi Bisquit,
The cross could be the pictorial mark of the Viennese goldsmith Josef Zauza.
Look for the letter A in the lion head mark.
Best regards/JAKJO

There's definitely an A, just to the left of the lion head. Where could I learn more about Josef Zauza? Googling isn't turning up very much.

Again, thank you all for your kindness!
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Hello

JACKJO has already set the limelight on correct spot: Josef Zauza, Vienna

Waltraud Neuwirth report in »Wiener Gold- und Silberschmiede und ihre Punzen 1867 bis 1922« (Gold- and Silversmithes and their marks 1867 until 1922 — in 2 vol. — vol. I: letter A-K; vol. II: letter L-Z. Vienna 1977 - ISBN 3-900282-00-5).

Vol. II, p. 290 (translated):

ZAUZA, JOSEF
Jewellery-, Gold- and Silverware Producer
Died 3 January 1914
Work permission: 1862
Employees (1914): 30 workers
VII, Neustiftgasse 56 (1865-1871)
VII, Zieglergasse 69 (1872-1892)
VII, Halbgasse 24 (1893-1914)
Products: »…produces next to all ranges of
Jewellery also Tobacco tin’s, Walking-stick
handle, Cigar cutter and Baton
in every desired specification.
Specialities: Enamel paintings. Own
Design atelier« (Source: Lehmann 1897)
»Production of all luxury and domestic
Products« (Source: Lehmann 1899)
»Boxes, Cigarette lighter’s, Sweet dishes. —
Silver jewels. — Tula ware. — Black and
Blue Mirror enamel. — Jewellery. —
Insignia rings, Mirror, Enamel« (Source: Calendar 1898)
»Silver jewels. Cigarette and Tobacco boxes,
Cigarette lighter’s, Walking-stick handle.
Speciality: Enamel and Tula mass products,
Amulet rings for Health resorts and places of
Pilgrimages« (Source: Compass 1914)
Export: Romania, England, Italy, Serbia
(Source: Compass 1914)

Taking part in “Hunting show” of Vienna 1910
(Got there fore Country’s Silver Medal)
»Mr. Zauza makes nice Enamel products
e.g. Boxes, Belts, Arm rings, Bart brushes,
Cigar cutters and Pocket knifes«
(Source: Trade journal 1910)

Mark’s:
JZ (Antique letters in a rectangle frame)
+ ("Paw cross", struck incise)
JZ (Grotesque letters, struck incise)

Kind regards silverport
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Many thanks, Jakjo and silverport - I do appreciate all the information.

If indeed it's Austrian, what significance do you suppose the "MS" mark might have? Such a mystery, this little bracelet.

Thank you again!
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Hello

Your question on M&S is indeed an important one in this case to.

You have stated in beginning that M&S is in Antiqua letters (Mark scheme II 13).

For that reason I had ignored, because Waltraud Neuwirth report only M&S in Sanserif - Mark scheme II 14 - vol. II, p. 355, # 1852 > vol. II, p. 50 = Markowitsch & Son.

Before they were registered Markowitsch & Scheid; they have had 1873 (World Exhibition 1873 in Vienna) 160 employe! A company with same product range as Josef Zauza.

Maybe now rise work for Sherlock Holmes: Who made the bracelet?

In published photo it's not clear: Antiqua letters or Sanserif ones? You've the object - please control this and inform us again.

Kind regards silverport
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The M&S is in a serif face - the mark is very similar to this Scottish one:



with the ampersand the same height and weight as the letters.

(Sherlock Holmes is out making movies - I think we must do our own research!)
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I will add that in the mark on my bracelet, the letters are closer together than in the Scottish mark above.
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Hello

In »Neuwirth« for »Vienna« is registered a little bit more then 2,400 maker's mark. A maker's mark for M&S in Antique letters (scheme II 13) isn't there mentioned - I guess that this missing mark belong maybe to another assay office - and there are a lot of them - in the Austria-Hungarian Empire. All of them have used the same scheme as they in Vienna.

Possibly a retailer’s mark from somewhere in the Austria-Hungarian Empire, who has bought your bracelet from Josef Zauza; e.g. a retailer in Prague …?

Vienna assay office had a maker's mark scheme of seven main type of maker's mark's "frame" or contours:
I = rectangle
II = rectangle with clipped edges (as your is)
III = horizontal oval
IV = rectangle with notches in upper and lower part
V = horizontal oval with notches in upper and lower part
VI = horizontal oval with notches on left and right side
VII = rectangle with notches on left and right side

Here in 14 differences of upper case letter combinations:
1 = Antique letters
2 = Sanserif letters
3 = Antique letters, in between of them a centred dot
4 = Sanserif letters, in between of them a centred dot
5 = Antique letters, in between of them a centred short vertical line
6 = Sanserif letters, in between of them a centred short vertical line
7 = Antique letters, in between of them a dash
8 = Sanserif letters, in between of them a dash
9 = Antique letters, in between of them an x
10 = Sanserif letters, in between of them an x
11 = Free style Antique letters and Ligatures
12 = Ligatures in Sanserif letters
13 = Antique letters, in between of them an ampersand
14 = Sanserif letters, in between of them an ampersand

To could enlarge the possible amount of marks came in force from Vienna assay office regulation »2172/1907«.

If a professional - from 1907 on - has solicitude for a mark, he had especially to mention in his solicitation, if he like to get a mark out of this new enlarged scheme = Italic scheme. If yes, then he had to mark his solicitation with N = new. Otherwise he got one in old scheme.

Nr. 1 until 10, 13 and 14 (except 11 and 12 !): In regulation »2172/1907« is fixed, that primary types of frame I, II, IV and VII have to be rhombic and letters have to be in italic.

Some company and workshop had - separately - also a symbol as her mark, like Josef Zauza's pawn cross (Neuwirth, vol. II, p. 371, # 2394).

There were also some more differences possible, e.g. in relief (table 12).

In a register for every letter combination of Antique and Sanserif letters were remark the name of applicant; e.g. one sheet = AA in Antique, an other one = AA in Sanserif.

(This is a visual excerpt of Neuwirth, vol. I, p. 66 table 11 [Type scheme of maker's mark] and p. 67 table 12 [JB in Antique])

Kind regards silverport
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Hi and thank you for your efforts, Silverport,

Could it perhaps be this mark, I have problems deciding whether it is the letter F or P?



Best regards/JAKJO
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Hello

Maker’s mark, shown by JACKJO, could be the same as the second one on the mourning bracelet.

Well biscuit state in his information from 5 February: »with the ampersand the same height and weight as the letters«.

But if you look to - by 2209patrick on 30 January enhanced — photos their mark’s ampersand look like in height more different, as biscuit states; biscuit has the origin and must now look again to this very important detail. In the scheme of Vienna assay office for ampersand mark isn’t a fixed rule for the ampersand itself — they themselves have in here scheme the in letters written et.

Now let’s take a look to by JACKJO shown fineness mark: If we take in consideration that in the Austria-Hungary Empire were during the time in question (end of 19 and begin of 20 century) always assay rules the same so also letter type of assay office indication letter = Sans serif.

In this by JACKJO shown fineness mark — which isn’t struck correct horizontally — could be the assay office indicator letter in reality »P« = Pest (were the Budapest assay office was settled). Because a »P« could miss his front curve if it isn’t struck correct — as it is here shown — and could mutate there fore to »F«.

Its pity that until yet Waltraud Neuwirth hasn’t had to her work of Vienna marks equal successor for the other area of the former Austria-Hungary Empire.

So I guess that by JACKJO shown example could be the same mark, as on by biscuit shown mourning bracelet.

Now rise again the question, who was M&S: Maker, Retailer?

Maybe by incidence comes a sounded answer; which I haven’t yet.

Kind regards silverport
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