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Hello.

We have this Silver holy water font with a Hutschenreuther porcelain plaque.

The silver mark doesn't appear to be complete and we are not sure about the maker.

Could be Gebrüder Kühn?



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Thanks in advance.

Hello

I’ve analyzed all bad or incomplete marks which I’ve stored in picture from »Gebrüder Kühn« (founded 1860) = not sufficient match of them, related to here shown mark (including crescent, crown, 800).

Around 1900 in Germany are about 50 companies and workshop registered which produced also some, or a wide range of religious articles. Almost of their marks don’t fit either; because many of them have letters in their mark.

When I saw first your question, spontaneous impression was: Mark of »Gebrüder Deyhle« (founded 1820).

For final I’ve analyzed all bad or incomplete marks which I’ve stored in picture from »Gebrüder Deyhle«, included their marks of crescent, crown and 800.

Well, »Gebrüder Deyhle« and »Gebrüder Kühn« aren’t especially noticed for to make also religious articles. Both had in their history a broad range of articles of silverware and also many slightly differing makers mark.

As result of before mentioned: I guess, your holy fountain is a product of Gebr. Deyhle, Schwäbisch Gmünd, Württemberg, Germany.

Kind regards silverport

Hello again silverport, thanks for your fast answer.

Gebrüder Deyhle was other of my choices, even Vietor in Darmstadt, as the few i can see is a prancing animal with the head and the tail missing...

I though on Gebrüder Kühn because the stylized legs as they are apperaring in the 3rd mark here:
http://www.925-1000.com/Fgerman_marks_a1884_2.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Looking at the porcelain mark, the object is dated somewhere between 1886 (looking at the crescent moon and the crown) and 1900, later hutschenreuther used other mark....

But with an incomplete mark is always difficult and i don't have your documentation and didn't know who was making or not religious items, and specially this ones with Virgings linking to the catholic church....

Many thanks for the tip, looks very likely to be so.

Best greetings.

I think the best match is Deyhle.
An other lion was from E.L.Vietor (Darmstadt).

Hello again

It wasn’t in your question especially asked for estimation of period; so I had not made any remark on this theme. As you already has known before, crescent and crown plus fineness had to be struck in Germany from 1 January 1888 on.

Style of item is in conventual’s style from Pre-Art Nouveau period. You already confirmed this by from you observed Hutschenreuther’s sign.

Some additional and little explanation: »Pecunia non olet« - Schwäbisch Gmünd was »Reichsstadt« and had after the »30 Year War« (1618-1648) attracted again a few gold and silversmiths to live and work there in freedom in an Emperor directly related town organism. In surrounding Württemberg County - be came later a Duchy - was already states religion the Protestantism. But they made chalices, cruces, and rosary as well!

1802 Schwäbisch Gmünd has lost his »Reichsstadt« privilege and be came part of Württemberg Grand Duchy; 1806 Kingdom of Württemberg.

König Friedrich von Württemberg (populary called »Der dicke Friedrich« - he was 2.11 m tall!) and his successor Wilhelm was very interested in prosperity of his country — also by small and “big“ industrialization. The first silverware factory started there 1845 — reason for so late = guild’s restrictions.

Now this first silverware factory is a »Living Museum«: http://www.schwaebisch-gmuend.de/62-Sil ... abrik.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

When guilds were solved, almost the »Eldermann« (Warden) was in possession of town’s mark.

In this case the Schwäbisch Gmünd »Unicorn« mark came in possession of »Gebrüder Kühn« - here following you could see an early struck of »Gebrüder Kühn«.



Kind regards silverport

»925-1000« members at all are always being happy to could answer - we learn from these questions often as well.

Many thanks Theoderich, yes all of them are having a prancing animal...

Thanks again silverport, specially for the aditional information that i would never have been able to find :-)

I will take the possible Gebrüder Deyhle atribution, looks quite accurate.

Greetings.

there are two marks from Vietor (Darmstadt)

Thanks Theoderich.

I only knew the first one, not the second with the Lion more stylized.

Looking at my mark and this second one from Vietor i have to say that is very similar, the four legs are nearly identical...

Many thanks again.

Hello again

I must place view corrections — that’s not including my guess, that the Holy fountain is maybe a product of »Gebrüder Deyhle«.

I have stated: »Pecunia non olet« and concluded: But they made chalices, cruces, and rosary as well!

In between I remembered again that the »Reichsstadt« Schwäbisch Gmünd was under Emperor Karl V. directives (Carlos I. in Spain); he was Catholic. Town council of Schwäbisch Gmünd decided that the town remained Catholic. So it was usual there to live and work as a Catholic and make chalices, cruces, holy fountain and rosary as well.

And in surrounding Württemberg was from 1534 on Protestantism states religion under directives of Ulrich, the Duke of Württemberg. He came back in possession of his country by assistance of another Protestant = Philipp I, Count of Hessen. Darmstadt was one part of his territory — and what kind of religious items were there made?

Now let us look to Vietor in Darmstadt. The guide 1903 register Vietor not as a »workshop«, but only as a shop — from 11 shop’s in Darmstadt. One of them was Courts jeweller and three were Courts supplier — but neither G.L. Vietor at all.

If this Holy fountain bears Vietor’s mark, then it is a seller’s mark — but not a maker’s mark! Maker was another — in that time there were in Germany around 50 workshops, manufactories and fabrics busy with production of religious items (here reported in my first contribution; including local circumstances of when founded and range of products).

So we are now back again in Schwäbisch Gmünd - with his long lasting catholic history in live and work.

Then after I had in my first attempt researched on similarity in the whole range of bad struck marks detail:

Form and details of Crescent
Form and details of Crown
Form and details of Ciphers
Form and details of Animal

And I had decided to show in my second post an early mark of »Gebrüder Kühn« as well. If you enlarge this photo, you could observe there more similarity to a lion and less of a unicorn — because the real “unicorn” is there imaginable only!

Now what? »Gebrüder Deyhle«? »Gebrüder Kühn«? Neither of them?

It’s maybe a pity: More then 20 year ago I had a catalogue »No. 3 — Blatt 1-60« from »Gebrüder Deyhle« in my hand — but flatware oriented I haven’t looked through.

Now let’s stop “to guess” only.

I advise the owners to write e.g. to Stadtmuseum Schwäbisch Gmünd — maybe there are catalogues from the items made by »Gebrüder Deyhle« and/or »Gebrüder Kühn«?

And send maybe also a question to Hutschenreuther’s archive — there exists maybe a notice on which of both company has buy this porcelain?

By this question is again imaginable, that often should be studied the influences of circumstances.

And all we have to learn from »buckler« in observation of minuscule details of (bad) struck marks.

Thank you »buckler« for your lessons to us and work for us!

Kind regards silverport