www.925-1000.com

Hello,
I have a spoon made by L. Nast, assayer is Josef Sosnkowski from Warsaw. On the side about the russian makers marks L. Nast worked in Minsk. So I ask myself, whether the mark with the double headed imperial eagle with crown is from Minsk or Warsaw and what means the second mark from the right, the oval mark?

Kind regards,
Ringo

It is assayed in Warsaw because between 1869-1896 Sosenkovskij/Sosiovskij/Sosnovskij, Stanislavovitch, Josef Sosikovskij, Ios Sosikovskij, Osip (many name variations for this assayer) worked there and marked O.C but he also marked both IC and IS.

The mark in the middle is unclear, I cannot see what it states. I assume it might be the company's trademark/logo (Garter), but? Could you show a bigger and sharper picture of the questioned mark, thank you.

What makes you think Ludwik Nast 1852-1879 worked in Minsk? According to my sources we worked in Warsaw.

Have a nice day

Qrt.S

Hello Ort.S,
I thank you very much for your help.

That L.Nast has worked in Minsk I have read on the side about the russian makers marks in 925-1000:
http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_makers_A.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But there is another Nast mark on the same side from Warsaw

I try to make a better Photo, but even under the microskop there is no structure inside the oval mark to see. It is only a oval circle.

Thanks and kind regards,
Ringo

Forgot to mention that why would Nast have his objects assayed in Warsaw if he worked in Minsk? At that time there was an assaying office in Minsk and the assayer(s) was /were Aleksandr Vasiljevitsh Uschatov (Does anybody know Uschatov's mark ?) and probably also Ivan Aleksejevitsh Tschertenkov (ИЧ).

Well, if there is nothing inside the oval I cannot help you. It might be a trademark but? Maybe some other reader can sort this out. Anyway, just believe me when I say that Ludwik Nast worked in Warsaw (until otherwise is proved). Please note that Minsk and Warsaw are sometimes mixed with each other due to fact that the cities' coat of arms are very similar indeed very similar! That you can check from 925's Russian city marks.

Rgds

Qrt.S

Hello Ort.S,
thank you for the informations!
I have just in this moment seen the "oval" mark on the side from Theoderich under Warsaw . There is a better photos of this mark. It is a horizontal crescent (moon sickle) with 3 stars between its both ends. But I have no idea what this marks means.

Kind regards,
Ringo

It’s an assumption of mine = in time of illiterates’ maybe a »house brand«?

Hello all

In »Ringo’s« source for L. Nast being located in Minsk, is shown also the maker’s signs of Cyprian Labecki, Warsaw 1880’s-1890’s. As an additional symbol or mark, is there shown in a vertical oval cartouche, a cattle’s face.

Please look here again: http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_makers_A.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I interpret in »Ringo’s« here shown example, the “contents” of the horizontal oval cartouche, as a revealed »corncob«.

In time of illiterates’, also in the circle of the more “settled” clients population, it was maybe a »house brand«? Don’t forget the own kindergarten, and the symbols there.

This assumption of interpretation of mine is actually based only on these two examples — it would be nice, if some body, which has closer relation to examples and marks of Warsaw gold and silversmiths, would take up this as a theme of additional research. Here I say for this attempt already my very best Thanks!

Kind regards silverport

Let's try to make a new start. First of all there is almost always a mess when we take about Minsk's and/or Warsawa's silversmiths or assayers. These cities are often mixed with each other and the smiths as well. Secondly take a look at the page Silverport mentioned. Under L you will find L. Nast 1856-87 placed in Minsk (under L !?). Now move to N. There you will find Ludwik Walenty Nast 1854-1890 and a different mark and the city is now Warsaw !?

Summa Summarum: Its the same smith, i.e. Ludwik Nast 1852-1879 from Warsaw He used two marks "Nast" and "L.Nast" both in script. Moreover, some Polish smiths used an additional trademark/personal mark, whatever called, like a star (Birkowski) , a stork (Nowakowski), a bird (Oksenberg), two crossed achors (Paszkowski)or a dog head (Labecki). The famous Pogorzelski used a stag head etc.etc.. What Nast used ,I'm afraid I don't know (cannot know it all...:-)) maybe this mark Ringo is referring to, who knows?

I fully share silverport's suggestion for a full research on this area, any volunteers ?

There is also a kind of a mess on Postnikova's pages 200-201 regarding Minsk. Mark #1894 is Walery Kostrebsky but he belongs to Warsaw not Minsk. Also O.C (#1898) is placed in Minsk but he was in Warsaw too, never in Minsk. In addition, look carefully as from #1906 and probably you notice that some of the names belong to Warsaw not Minsk, i.e. Pogorzelski, Nast already mentioned also Radke, etc. etc.

This is not easy, not at all.

Anyway, try still to have a nice evening

Qrt.S

Hi -
the problem here is that Warzaw manufacturers also used their own initials and/or name as well as their trademark - sometimes resulting in a set of three marks:
1) maker´s initials (or name)
2) maker´s trademark
3) retailer´s name (or initials)
(And this does´nt even include the Russian marks!)

While many Warsaw trademarks are known, others have to be deduced from the common initials or name they share.
Your spoon was made by:

Maker: Bracia Hempel [ Hempel Brothers] (1899-1915)
Maker´s mark: W.H in an oval (for Wladislaw Hempel); Br Hempel in a round rectangle or incuse
Trademark : three stars above a slipper moon

and sold by Nast Ludwik (1852-1879)
Maker´s mark: Nast (script); also L.Nast (script)
Trademark: gander

Regards
Postnikov

Mind my saying but this is an amazing spoon !!!!!!!! It is sold (1852-1879) before it is even made (1899-1915), how's that possible? Dear Postnikov, kindly revise your statement something is wrong in it I'm afraid. In addition, two maker's marks? Who has actually made the spoon, Nast or Hempel ?

Sorry I'm completely lost in the wilderness of Polish silver marks....

Qrt.S

Additional oval marks in Warsaw - what is their signification?

Hello all

It seems to me that my assumption, that maybe the additional oval cartouches to their name mark, of Warsaw gold and silversmiths, could be interpreted as an additional »house brand«. Could that now become more sounded?!

Now I’ve had the chance to study my assumption in brief — here are now the results:

»Nast« mark in script, for Ludwik Nast; addition: A jewellery ring, shown in perspective.
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/TE ... d=Warschau(Polen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)_1840_Ludwik_Nast.JPG

»L.Nast« mark in script, for Ludwik Walenty Nast II; addition: A jewellery ring, shown in perspective.
(The letter V = stand here for his second German Christian name »Valentin« is here in script integrated by him in the first letter N of his German family name Nast — Nast is a singular name, and couldn’t be translated!)
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/TE ... d=Warschau(Polen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)_1858_Ludwik_Walenty_Nast_II.JPG

Here with is documented, that my interpretation of »L.Nast« oval mark “contents”, a revealed »corncob«, is an absolutely wrong interpretation! But could be maybe used as a dates indication; because the inner area of the in perspective shown jewellery ring is worn by the often use of this punch?

»Malcz« mark in script, for Karol Filip Malcz; addition: An anchor.
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/TE ... d=Warschau(Polen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)_1840_Karol_Filip_Malcz.JPG
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/TE ... d=Warschau(Polen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)_1850_Karol_Filip_Malcz.JPG

»E.Radke« mark in script, for Emil Radke; addition: A horizontal Crescent, with 3 stars above of the Crescent.
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/TE ... d=Warschau(Polen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)_1850_Emil_Radke.JPG
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/TE ... d=Warschau(Polen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)_1860_Emil_Radke.JPG

»T.Klima.« mark in script, for Tomasz Klimazewski; addition: A to the right trotting farmers’ horse.
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/TE ... zowski.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/TE ... zewski.JPG" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Under these new interpretations of me, must maybe revised, that the »Meer-maid« mark is another Warsaw town symbol?

Please look here:

»Lilpop« mark in script, for Karol Jerzy Lilpop; addition: A »Meer-maid«
http://silberpunze.piranho.de/Silber/TE ... d=Warschau(Polen" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)_1820_Karol_Jerzy_Lilpop.JPG

For me it’s very interesting, to see that almost of these »house brand« marks are placed in an oval cartouche.

Except that »house mark« of Tomasz Klimazewski - his additional »house mark«, a to the right trotting farmers’ horse, is shown first (attributed to be from about 1830) in a horizontal rectangle, with clipped edges; and second shown in a similar cartouche (attributed to be also from about 1830): A horizontal rectangle, with clipped edges.

The following please don’t interpret, to be of a kind of »Nationalism«:

In »Warszawa stare« (»… stare« = Old town) were the humans of German ancestry a “dominating” part of the population there. They were practising, and of course had their guilds too, in nearly all professions be needed in such a kind of agglomeration; including commercial activities as sales men and suppliers. Also gold and silversmith, as commercial activities as sales men and suppliers, were practised from some of the population of Jewish ancestry. And of course, there were also gold and silversmith of other National ancestry practising their profession, including them of being of Polish ancestry. Warsaw was then a kind of multinational Micro Region.

The Polish court was in the history of Poland traditionally be settled in Krakow. By “grace” of Napoleon, the »Duchy of Warsaw« was settled in Warsaw. And by decision of the 1815 in Vienna held »Congress«, a part of historical “Poland” was becoming “Congress Poland” — as a kind of Province under Russian supervision.

In that time span the above as an example personally mentioned gold and silversmith of Warsaw were (I think so) all members of their Warsaw Guild of gold and silversmith.

It seems that the gold and silversmith of German ancestry were maybe the mayor group of the Warsaw Guild? Is the Oval cartouche maybe also a kind of symbol too? The Oval, as a kind of symbol: He is a gold and silversmith of German ancestry? Or maybe as a kind of an early quality mark: »Made by Germans«?

But why is the cartouche of Tomasz Klimazewski not also in an Oval, but in a horizontal rectangle with clipped edges? Is this by incidence, because his to the right trotting farmers’ horse has needed more space? Or were there in the Warsaw gold and silversmith Guild, divisions of nationalities? I think not — but I don’t know the real facts!

I’m now very curious on finding more facts pro or contra my assumption on additional oval Warsaw marks.

Last but not least, a huge amount of thanks to »Theoderich«, who has founded and runs the search possibility: http://silberpunze.piranho.de" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Kind regards silverport

Hello all,
here is a better Photo of the oval mark.
I hope, it helps.

Thanks and kind regards,
Ringo

Hi Ort.s -
I have over 30 Polish/Russian silver objects in my collection - all authentic! The trademarks of the silversmiths can cause confusion - all in different sources given dates are not absolute, generally being inferred from other marks and descriptions. There are 3 interim marks and 2 kokoshnik marks from ca. 1866-1920. In my opinion not only vendors bought from silversmith - also silversmith bought from silversmith - that at least is shown on my pieces. I enclose some photos where you can see this clearly. The other big problem are the many contemporary pieces ( sabbath candle sticks, sugar boxes etc. with many marks and trade marks from different time frames) which flood the market. Some have the Imperial eagle, others the letter iota, townmark from Minsk and so on. All this marks find there way to hallmark archives of silver sites and everybody believe they are proofed and authentic. Do you really think that so much silver and Judaica survived the time 1939 - 1980? If you have better informations - let me know. The spoon looks authentic and is a fact. The marks are as they should be. So what?
Have a look:
I. Szekman, trademark fish sell silver made by W. Hempel , trademark 3 stars above a slipper moon - or vice versa - both silversmiths!



or:
I. Prinzenthal, trademark horse facing left sold silber to the vendor Spiro




some other examples:





I. Ehrlich sold silber made by Pjotr Latkowski without his trademark a triangel





And so on and on ....

Hi silverport -

many of your trademarks are not correct or belong to other smiths. Do not belive in archives until you have checked all possible sources.
I could write an article about Polish silversmiths and their trademarks, but.....

Regards
Postnikov

Hi -
sorry for the typo - it must read M. Prinzenthal!

Regards
postnikov

Hello,

No, I do not believe so much Polish Judaica survived the war. I have seen too much of fake Polish Judaica etc. And we are not either talking about your fake free collection but about a situation where a spoon is sold before it is even made. This indicates that something is undoubtedly wrong somewhere , what, I don't know. Even in Postnikova there are errors regarding this area, see Minsk, page 200. The problem with Polish silver is commonly known. My point is that due to the above stated one should be very careful indeed when investigating Polish silver. This is a warning only, that's all.

Hi -
please reread my contributions! The marks are real and the by several sources given dates are well known, (all the different authors do not recherche - they copy from each other). That most of this dates are not absolute is very well known! This is the officiel version - what I know or think is different! Real hallmarking started 1920! Polish silver.....
When I mention my collection it is not because I am an attention queen - it´s because I can see and touch the objects I am speaking of. Theory and praxis! There are all possible variants - like W. Birkowski, trademark Star of David, without his name but with a Russian (?) master - or is he another Polish silversmith, writing his name in Cyr. like other Polishs masters (B. Skarlat or M.L. Sztern) ?

See photo



I am sure you have the answers!

Regards
Postnikov

Guys. You mixed up few things. The marks that you see on some silver pieces, accompanied by different makers mark is quite common on Polish silver. It's not because we produced so much fakes. There are two differens things: silver maker and silver retailer. Some of the makers were retailers at the same time and often sold (as an intermediary) silver that came from other silversmiths. Thats why you often see other silversmith works with additional marks of Hempel, Radke, Nagalski or Birkowski, or Szekman and the others. Sometimes it might just be difficult to distinguish which of the two actually made the piece and who just sold to the final customer.

The mark seen on the spoon by Ludwik Nast is his own maker's mark depicting snake eating its own tail. Its usually not so visible but you may see it sometimes.