www.925-1000.com

Hi!
I found this cigarette box on a flea market and paid the equivalent of $1 (!) for it.
What I have found out so far, is that it was made in Moscow in 1881 with the niello technique. But, I have only seen one image on the web with a similar sun ray background.

I have no idea what kind of house this could be - but it would be very interesting to know.
The box is rather worn - as the engravings are worn off in some areas. In addition, the box seems to be repaired in one end. There seems to be one 'eye' missing in the upper part.

Front side:

Back side:

Inside:

Hallmark, bottom:

Hallmark under the top:


Any information would be appreciated!

Regards, Jan Erik

Hi -
niello cigaret cases (more cigarillo) with a "sunburst" and architectural sujet are the taste of the time - the houses, rural scenes, buildings or churches are mostly phantasy. The case was assayed in Moscow 1881 by assayer ИК Ivan Jefimowitsch Konstantinov - on duty in the years 1874-1882. 84 (Zolotniki) is the silver content = 875/1000. What is a little strange: the assay mark on the bottom part is correct for the years 1880-1884 - the assay mark on the upper lid was in use 1883-1886 only. The maker I can not read - the photos are to blurry - maybe you try to make them better (sharper)! The case is authentic.

See example photo:



Regards
Postnikov

Thanks a lot for your feedback! I will surely make a couple of new photos with better lighting and try to get out the details of the symbols. The problem as far as I can tell, is that the symbols (the two on the right) are rather blurry and not so sharp as the symbol with the year and the silver content. Do you also have a link to a better representation of the symbol to the right of the '84' on the bottom of my case? It's not easy to see - even with a magnifying glass - what it is supposed to represent.

Thanks again for the answer; very interesting and exciting how this case have made it's way to a flea market in Norway! And, also nice to know it's an authentic item.

Regards, Jan Erik

Hi -
here you go. The symbol is the town mark of Moscow - St. Georg the dragon slyer.





Regards
Postnikov

Thanks again!
Not what I would have guessed by the look of the image in my case ;-)
My first guess would have been a four-leaf clover...
I will get back with better photos later today.
For the difference in the symbols used in the top/bottom part - do you have any idea why the 'wrong' mark is used?

Regards, Jan Erik

Hi -
there is no logical explanation - maybe human error or fake - but fake is excluded.

Regards
Postnikov

Hello,

I'm not at all convinced yet, I need better photos of the marks. The lower city mark Postnikov shows is not the same mark as on the lid. Please note the missing side notches on the mark on the case. This mark on the lid was used 1873-1877 meaning a mismatch with the bottom mark.In addition why would an assayer use two different marks on the same object??? Another matter is the maker, what letters can be seen? I think I see ДШ or ДЦ or ? Who would that be?

Better pictures thank you.

Just a thought, but is it possible that the lid and base were assayed exactly as indicated, and the two parts were simply stock pieces or what I think we call jewelers findings which were later decorated and assembled. I know I'm way out of my league, so fire away?

The case in the topic is very nice indeed, and the case in the sharper image is gorgeous.

I would say yes, it is impossible. The Russian legislation was very strict. An object must be brought to the assayer marked but unfinished, unpolished and in pieces. Each part was assayed an marked separately but at the same time. Then the smith went back to his workshop and put the object together, smoothed a possible impression mark and polished the object ready for sale or delivery.
I do not believe in such "mistakes" that a wrong punch was used by "mistake" etc. It is a bad excuse if you don't know what actually has happened and/or don't have a acceptable explanation to "strange marks" like in this case.

Take a look at the maker's marks in the bottom and on the lid. Are they the same marks or different marks?
Take also a close look at the quality of the case. In my opinion it is not a quality piece not to mention the marks in it self. They are badly struck. How can a mark be so worn on the inside??? I would understand it if the marks were on the outside. Having a cigarette case in your pocket year after year and touching it many times a day would of course worn the marks and the whole case, but on the outside only, wouldn't it, or?

Look at roof of the house. To me it looks like a tin roof and not a shingle roof which was common at that time, and and, and...

As I requested, betters pictures of all marks, thank you.

Hi again and thanks for all feedback.

Here are some more close-up images of the marks. I have lighted the object from the side to try to make them come out more detailed, but to my eye they look 'negative' instead (i.e. like the stamps are standing out from the surface instead of being stamped down into the metal). Hopefully, they are easier to read here - if not I'm glad to get tips on how to get better photos. The small mark beside the readable part looks like it's stamped with a very worn stamp - but is quite similar on the two parts.

Top:



Bottom:



Regards, Jan Erik

Hi -

with some phantasy I can read ПМ (lat. PM) = Miljukov Petr Pavlowitsch 1877-1912 as the silversmith - but it is more or less a guess. The punches are too unclear.



your photo skills are OK - if some marks are bad struck, you can get only bad struck marks...

Regards
Postnikov

Hi -
forgot to upload some photos from an object (spoon) P. Miljukov made - his niello work is best known.







Regards
Postnikov

Thanks again for photos and explanation. Would the combination of ПМ (Miljukov Petr Pavlowitsch) 1877-1912 as the silversmith and assayer ИК (Ivan Jefimowitsch Konstantinov) 1874-1882 be a 'valid' combination - i.e. that there exist other known works by the two together?
Excuse my lack of knowledge about this, as before finding this item I didn't know even what niello meant - and how beautiful it could be.
The good thing is that I have a nice handmade piece of art - and I also have some history behind it's creation (even if all details are difficult to verify).
The most exciting thing would of course have been to know who the original owner was (X.K?) and any information about the depicted house.
I'm not an expert on buildings, but to me the roof of the house looks like a wooden roof like the one in this old russian photo: (I remembered these old russian color photos I found on the web a few years ago when I saw the house on my box).
Or, could it be corrugated iron plates (or bitumen - not sure if it's the right word - it's what Google translate says) as it looks like in this picture?
(The larger collection is to be found here: http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2010/0 ... y_ago.html)
Actually seeing images in color from this time (around 1910) and age gives a very different impression than the ordinary b/w images from the same time.

The back of the house also seems to be some kind of hill or mountain - but I'm not sure if it's just there to give a good composition or representing something real.

Regards, Jan Erik

Your photos of the marks are more than excellent, thank you. Unfortunately it doesn't help because the maker's mark is a badly struck (I wonder why?). As Postnikov mentioned with a wide imagination you can read ПМ ПМ. but as well ПЦ ПШ ПЩ ЛШ ДМ ДЦ....etc, in other words whatever pleases you.

Anyway, we can see that the figures in 1881 are not in line, and they should be. We can also see that there are no notches on 84, there should be. St George town mark looks like a smudge, it shouldn't. Consider that the assayers' punches were made in St Petersburg's Mint Office. I don't think they made such poor quality official marks there.

I'd like to ask you, do you see any marks at all on the rim? The rim could be a separate part and soldered to the base/bottom. Therefore it should have at least a maker's mark, has it?

Postnikov may correct me if I'm wrong but to my understanding the initials should be on the top and not on the bottom. In addition, isn't the knob on the top piece and not on the bottom piece? To me the knob should be on the bottom piece.

I wonder is it maybe put together of two different cases? That might explain with a big maybe why the town mark differs. I mentioned this contradiction earlier.

What I stated earlier plus what I stated here makes one conclusion only i.e. I'm sorry but I consider this to be a suspect case.

Thanks for the feedback.
I have to scrutinize the item again for marks on the rim, as I think it is welded on to the bottom part. For the knob, it is on the bottom part (i.e. the part with the initials, not the image of the building).
I agree that it's suspicious that the stamps used must have had a very poor quality - and without access to other items with similar stamps it's very difficult for me to judge if this is common or not.
Another minor issue: If you look at the stamp with the year above the 84, the 8 seems to be upside-down? I.e. the larger half of the 8 seems to be on top?
Also the two 8's in the year looks like they are of different size.

Regards, Jan Erik

No no, not welded but soldered. But this is interesting, if it is a separate part and soldered to the bottom it must have a maker's mark, try to find it. If there is no mark, the case is clear...

Well you said it yourself "it is suspicious...". Believe me when I say that the punches were of high quality and it is not common at all that the letters or figures are not in line or up side down etc...like in your case. However, one other thing caught my mind. Don't you think it is strange that the initials are on the bottom piece? Why do you put your initials on an object? Yes to tell people that "This is my case, it is a fine (expensive) object, do you see it!" and here they are on the bottom where nobody can see them? What they see is a house...., a house? So what! The cigarette cases I have seen have the initials on the top.
By the way, the initials are in Latin letters HK......if the fraktura fonts are Cyrillic letters and not Latin letters. Cyrillic fraktura font is a bit strange combination.

Have a nice evening

Qrt.S

Hi -
when it comes to Russian cigarette (or cigarillo) cases and silver in general you have to know: Even the Russians used industrial manufacturing more and more. What you see most is silver from massproductions. Once famous firms used suppliers or bought from smaller manufacturers to compete on the market. Quality was from poor to superb - it depended on the price you wanted to pay - like today. They all were merchants and wanted to make money!! The assay offices were flooded with the massive silverproductions of hundreds of workshops. So sometimes funny things happened nobody can explain.

For Qrt.S

The cartoche for the initials was not always on the upperside but often at the underside - it depends on your personal taste. See photos. Please have a look at the different quality too. The thumb piece (push button) too was sometimes dislocated. There are all exeptions possible. Why? Maybe sloppy work or reasons we don´t know?

Front



Back



Regards
Postnikov

Hi Qrt.S
About monogramms:
Many Russian silver objects were sold to foreigners living in Russsia. St. Petersburg and Moscow were full of them....The Baltic states with many Germans were just "round the corner". The letters XK in Gothic script were typical for German initials at that time. Xaver Krüger for instance...

Here a Russian cigarette case (Karl Werlin, St. Petersburg) with German donation text to a singer´s community in Mitau/Baltic



Regards
Postnikov

Hi Postnikov,

Thank you for the specification. I knew you know these cigarette case matters better than I. That's why I asked you to correct me if necessary. I was not either sure whether the initials were in Latin or Cyrillic. It would have been a bit strange to have Cyrillic letters in Fraktura script but now it is all settled.

Thanks again and have a nice evening

Qrt.S

Hi Qrt.S -

with all the many authentic variations nobody can explain plus the many fake variations it is sometimes very, very difficult to understand what you see. The cigarette case we discuss here is more than dubious but on the other side there are essential signs that it is authentic. What to tell? 50% wrong and 50% right? 70% right and 30% wrong? Or is it the wellknown exeption from the rule?
The only thing I know for sure is that I know nothing! :-)

Regards
Postnikov