www.925-1000.com

Hello,

can somebody help me with this hallmarks? Minervahead is clear, and the last one is the eaglehead, I think. But the maker' s mark and the filigree mark are unclear for me. The age of the cup would also interest me. Please click on the photo to enlarge. Thanks for any help in advance! Christiane

I think this maker's mark was already identified:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 5&hilit=lg

Maurice

Francais wrote:I think this maker's mark was already identified:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 5&hilit=lg

Maurice

Hello Maurice,
thank you very much!

Maurice,

Was wondering if I might pose a follow up question on the other mark there, the one that Christiane described as a filigree mark. Had completely dismissed similar marks as imperfections on two French spoons until very recently when I more closely observed that one of them contained a partial design. Christiane's "filigree mark" contains part of that same design.

Would it be possible to clarify the function of these marks?

Warren

I would hope JayT will see this post as this is really more his area of expertise, I really am better with early French silver. Having said that if I understand the question, the second mark shown, just below the maker's mark is not so much a mark as a counter mark. This is described thoroughly in Tardy, I think I may have read it once. So the piece is put on a "bigorne", basically an anvil with bands of very small figures mostly of insects. The Minerva guarantee mark is then punched into the piece, which at the same time stamps the reverse side of the piece with one of the insects. This counter mark, if you can read it, should tell where the piece was made. Personally I think the counter marks are so small and similar I never pay any attention to them, probably because I am rarely interested in where a piece, after 1838, comes from. I do find it useful as it makes the guarantee mark devilishly difficult to fake. Also if you have an extremely ornate piece like a goblet and you think it is French, and can't find the guarantee or maker's mark around the rim, you just look inside for the counter mark. I hope this helps.
Maurice

Maurice,

That was extremely helpful, both marks are placed opposite the silver guarantee mark just as you indicated. These like so many others appear to be just bits and pieces although there was one post at 925 that showed almost a complete image of an ant. And one counter mark of mine shows what appear to be an ant's legs also in profile. Had also be reviewing all of the town marks, none seemed to come that close.

This information gave me the chance to review posts and comments by yourself, JayT, and Blakstone. Appears that questions on French counter marks and the bigorne don't come up all that often but it may be worth someone's time to write an additional article with examples for 925-1000.

My compliments Sir,
Warren

Thanks for the compliment, but the article will have to be written by JayT, as I believe he is one of the experts in this area. Blakstone is actually the person who caught me up, when I said that mark had never been copied or faked (on another forum). In fact it was copied, but they didn't copy the counter mark. He of course covers a lot of other fields, including of course Swiss silver.
Maurice

For more details related to the bigorne mark see : The Bigorne mark on French silver: an article for ASCAS (Association of Small Collectors of Antique Silver), written by Robert Massart.
www.ascasonline.org/articoloAPRI145ING.html‎
Kind regards

Thank you so much Zilver2 that was a great article.

Regards
Warren

Patronyme M.O. : Ladoucette & Gavard n° 02982
Prénoms : Jules et Pierre
Initiales : L & G
Profession : Orfèvrerie & d'église
Lieu d'activité : Paris
Adresse de l'atelier : 17 Rue Phélippeaux
Date d'insculpation : 1er Avril 1869
Date de biffage : 2 février 1886
N° de préfecture : 8331
N° de garantie : 8070
Symbole : un mouton sur une gaffe