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This pretty pair of pierced and decorated tongs I take to be Belgian but help needed for further attribution please. Bob

Hi,
The marks have been discussed here:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30263
There will be more detailed responses, hopefully.
Regards

Thanks for the link information from the previous posts but some images are not available now.
It seems these tongs were assayed in Luik/Leige, Belgium with the official stamp D.
Number 2 flanked by Laurel for .833 silver grade with Hand & Rod to guarantee the assay.
Not sure of a date for these and the first close up pic with the crescent shape is the maker possibly, any ideas please.
Bob

Hi Bob,

Maker's mark could be an eye in profile above D in a square which could be for; Pierre Louis Deshorgnies. Born in Mons 24-3-1769, died in Mons 12-8-1842; silversmith, jeweller shopkeeper. Active Mons 1798->1818.
Belgian assay office mark used 1815-1832 and regional assay office letter, if for Mons should be E.
2nd Image crescent shape, is the Belgian Gothic E used 1832-1869 a later applied import & duty mark to indicate Étranger or foreign (old domestic) (hall)marks.
See:
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... er#p131397


Best,

Peter

Source:
Walter van Dievoet; Répertoire général des orfèvres et des marques d'orfèvrerie en Belgique; II; 1798-1942

Thank you for your help Peter.
If Deshorgnies was the maker which does seem likely by your comments what date could these be judging by his working period ?
What puzzles me is the import mark, why use it if they were probably made in Mons, Belgium anyway ?
Unless of course he just imported them to be sold on from his shop when no longer an active silversmith.
Bob

Hi Bob,

Perhaps best to say best to say made first quarter 19th century. Maker's mark with the marks of of southern Netherlands (present Belgium); standard and office mark introduced in 1815 and used till 1832. In 1832 a new set of legal (hall)marks were introduced for the newly formed Kingdom of Belgium.

In brief: After the defeat (1815) of Napoleon at Waterloo, just south of Brussels, Belgium was given to the newly formed kingdom of the Netherlands (the decision was made at the Congress of Vienna)
Under King William I of the Netherlands, the Belgians resented measures that discriminated against them in favour of the Dutch, especially in the areas of language and religion. A rebellion broke out in Brussels in 1830, and Belgian independence was declared. William I invaded Belgium but withdrew when France and England intervened in 1832.
The Kingdom of Belgium
Belgian independence was approved by the European powers at the London Conference of 1830–31 In 1831, Prince Leopold of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha was chosen king of the Belgians and became Leopold I. In 1832 Belgium introduced the hallmarks of the Kingdom of Belgium. Somewhere between 1832 and 1869 your sugar tongs, with the old and invalid hallmarks of the southern Netherlands were offered for sale at a Belgian public sale or auction. Because the sugar tong did not have any legal or valid Belgian hallmarks an import and duty mark had to be applied. Hence the Kingdom of Belgium (Belgian) Gothic E mark; for étranger meaning foreign. This import and duty mark does not give any guarantee of a precious metal standard or fineness. Used on metal with a 250 minimum silver content as a duty mark. The mark was destined for all imported, unmarked and invalid marked objects of foreign, national and unknown origin.


Peter.

Hi Peter,
I understand now, I did not realise how complicated the continental hallmarking system could be.
What an interesting life these tongs have had, a very nice set and well worth the trouble of seeking answers.
Thanks for all the information.
Bob

Belgian silverin at the period of Pierre Louis Deshorgnies
1 French Republic (1798-1809)
2 Imperial Decree (1809-1814)
3 Kingdom of the Netherlands (1814-1831)
4 Kingdom of the Belgians (1832-present)

Pierre Louis Deshorgnies. He was located in the Rue de la Rue, 59. Deshorgnies died on August 12, 1842 in his house, Rue du Mont de Piété.

Repertoire general des orfevres et des marques d’orfevrerie en Belgique page 215

The Marks for foreign Works and recense

Repertoire general des orfevres et des marques d’orfevrerie en Belgique page 29


Netherlands Responsibility Marks from 1797 page 29

robert12 wrote:Thank you for your help Peter.
If Deshorgnies was the maker which does seem likely by your comments what date could these be judging by his working period ?
What puzzles me is the import mark, why use it if they were probably made in Mons, Belgium anyway ?
Unless of course he just imported them to be sold on from his shop when no longer an active silversmith.
Bob

Periode between 1815 and 1817
Dendriet

correction about time this was made

between 1815 and September 9th 1816




Dendriet

Hi Dendriet,

The sugar tong does not carry hallmarks of the Kingdom of Holland (1807-1812) nor those of the French regime (1798-1814). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Holland

Repertoire general des orfevres et des marques d’orfevrerie en Belgique page 29 refers to a script E not a Gothic E . See script E used 1815-1832:


For Gothic E used 1832-1869 see:



1815-1832, the Belgian assay offices were abandoned after the defeat of Napoleon at the beginning of 1814. King William I of the Netherlands restored the guarantee by way of a resolution of 14 September 1814 in the territory belonging to the Gouvernement de la Belgique, and by a resolution of 7 August 1815 in the remaining cities, that were then added to the Kingdom of the Netherlands. King william I had stipulated a replacement of the marks, but new marks were only delivered to the offices in the course of 1815. The new assay standard mark pictured two branches of laurel surrounding the numbers 1,2 or 3 for the first, second or third alloy. The new assay office hallmark for silver a hand with a stick, the assay offices were identified by means of a letter.
Pierre Louis Deshorgnies. Born in Mons 24-3-1769, died in Mons 12-8-1842; silversmith, jeweller shopkeeper. Active Mons 1798->1818. It is safe to say the sugar tong is made 1815-1832. Although stylistic I believe it to be made around 1820.

Best,

Peter

Thanks very much for all the detailed information.
Glad I picked these tongs up even with all the work I put fellow members through.
I am pleased to have got the "Belgium" bit right if nothing else.
Bob

oel wrote: The sugar tong does not carry hallmarks of the Kingdom of Holland (1807-1812) Peter

Where did I mentioned about Kingdom of Holland ?

I have to show the complexity all data's mentioned at the time of Pierre Louis Deshorgnies, but thought you would understand this.
Included Kingdom of the Netherlands (1814-1831)






If I look good, there is a letter A from Brussels and not a letter E of Mons


Dendriet

I did not notice the letter A for Brussels at all.
Thanks for pointing all the relevant facts out.
Bob

Dendriet wrote:correction about time this was made

between 1815 and September 9th 1816





Dendriet

Hi Dendriet,

No nitpicking but nothing to do with complexity. Perhaps you have to reread what you wrote and reconsider your conclusion.

To me the regional assay office letter is not clear and I leave it for the OP using a good loupe for comparison ;




However if for Brussels perhaps the unclear/smudged mark of Jean Baptiste Dees,silversmith Brussels active 1825-1851. See image D under hunting horn;

Good choice if you ask me! And if so If so the sugars tong is made somewhere between 1825 and 1832.

Best,

Peter

Yes indeed, would have preferred a clearer picture with additional loup



Bron: Dictionnaire des orfevres de Bruxelles au XIXe Siecle

Dendriet