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Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?
Posted: Wed Sep 25, 2019 2:25 pm
by legrandmogol
Re: Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 1:43 am
by Traintime
Just tossing in the standard reference link for marks of the Stato Pontificio (Papel States):
http://www.silvercollection.it/ROMEHALLMARKS.html
Re: Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 2:58 am
by amena
There are actually two silversmiths with that mark:
Gamberucci Sebastiano (1633-1658) and his son Marco (around 1650-1680). Gambero in Italian is shrimp. Even the papal mark seems seventeenth century. The strange thing is that the marks seem cast rather than struck and worn. Only you who have the pieces in your hand can understand if they are cast or struck.
Best regards
Amena
Re: Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 5:23 am
by Qrt.S
Italian marks are not my area, but I share amena's opinion i.e. those marks are not struck but part of the cast. I'm afraid that the objects are copies...The marks' bottom has the same structure as the object's surface and there are no sharp edges. Unfortunately I've seen this fudge before, sorry...
Re: Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 7:26 am
by legrandmogol
Thank you for your help! They could very well be copies but in person, they seem pretty old and have a lot of honest wear to them. Doesn't mean theyre not copies though. Are there any references or books you recommend regarding these silversmiths you can recommend?
Re: Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:01 am
by legrandmogol
more specifically are there books or online resources that focus on antique Italian made spoons, forks and knives? Also if anyone has seen specifically faked pieces that look like these and they can recall where I would love to see them for comparison purposes.
Re: Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 8:35 am
by Qrt.S
Well, they are made to look old, only in order deceive possible buyers unaware of what they are buying. The old many times repeated truth here is still valid i.e. "If you don't know what you are buying, don't buy!" My advice is: Do not hesitate, ask here before you buy anything you might regret later.
I believe Amena will revert with an answer regarding sources etc...
Re: Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:00 am
by amena
First of all I apologize, because, looking better, Marco is Sebastiano's nephew and not son, as I wrongly wrote.
The page is taken from the book
Maestri argentieri gemmari e orafi di Roma, by Anna Bulgari Calissoni.
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Below you can see some examples of Italian cutlery from the late 600s, early 700s.
Those with the red arrow are from Rome.
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Best regards
Amena
Re: Papal States Fork & Spoon c.1700?
Posted: Thu Sep 26, 2019 10:34 am
by legrandmogol
Don't worry, I never buy anything I regret. I just make to set a budget for the pieces first. I also can't help myself, I will always be drawn to the pieces that are unique and unknown to me and I can't find anything quite like this set. I also have a healthy collection now of 17th/18th-century European silver that when in hand they hold up. I have a few Venetian and Neapolitan pieces but these are my first Roman ones.
Thank you for the additional info Amena. I will have to hunt down that book.