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Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin Stem

Posted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:54 pm
by monetanova
Obverse looks like to be originally covered with gold layer, I can see hammered marks on reverse (*23* or *32*), on pin stem and ring (/// - three slash lines and some patterns hardly describable). Weight - 25 grams.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8223697/1.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8223697/2.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8223697/3.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8223697/4.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8223697/5.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8223697/6.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks in advance for any input or advice.

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:28 pm
by AG2012
Image
Image

Almost half of the mark is obliterated by the clasp attachment. One cannot strike marks like that. It seems the clasp attachment was soldered later over the mark. Is it soft solder — tin — it looks like that? You can check easily with a needle; soft solder will be scratched and no damage done. If so, I would consider a repair, not a difficult task.But tin must be completely cleaned off silver,otherwise one cannot use hard solder. Besides, two back attachments were most probably transposed; the narrow one (A) should be on the opposite side instead of B. If so, the mark would be clearly seen, and I think it was the original shape of fibula.

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:55 pm
by AG2012
Forgot something; even if early medieval, and let alone in the ancient world, fibulae were not supposed to be marked.
Now the function; fibulae were actually brooches to fasten clothing.
How does this one work? Is the needle hinged somehow? I don’t think so; it seems only the ring is free to rotate, if so, what do we do with a protruding needle?

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:15 pm
by pinksteel
Hi, in researching a similar pin that I have, I found that your piece is a penannular brooch. If you look up "Celtic Brooch" in Wikipedia, you will see the history and that they were made in other areas besides Great Britain.

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:00 pm
by pinksteel
Also look up Berber fibula.

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 4:04 am
by AG2012
Great info by pinksteel. Imazighen people,Berbers,being one of the oldest nations,have been in contact with Ancient Romans but their fibula,very consistent in form with the one posted,was fixed differently (fixed needle and the ring).Would really like to see how it works.But again,it is not expected to be marked,unless made much,much later.In short, this cannot be ancient world.Please,reconsider the fact the mark is obliterated.Tin soldered? If mine I would really be tempted to dismantle it and clean the solder,if tin.It melts at very low temperature and cannot harm the item.On the other hand,not many professional jewelers would accept this for repair.Leave it like this and enjoy it.

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:58 am
by pinksteel
This article explains how the pins work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_brooch

I posted the one I have (I think it's Moroccan) on another board here and figured all this out after I posted for info. I tried fastening the pin as the article described and it holds very well.

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:53 pm
by monetanova
It's silver soldering and was probably made in 16th century.

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:09 pm
by AG2012
What I have seen the needle is free to rotate. Not fixed to the brooch.
The marks; the first recorded Paris mark is 1677, the first recorded London mark is 1558, Moscow 1651.
Who punched silver in 16th century with our numerals?

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:53 pm
by pinksteel
This is a google image searh for Berber Fibula, check them out:

http://www.google.com/search?q=berber+f ... 99&bih=802

Re: Please help to identify ancient Silver Fibula with Pin S

Posted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 12:13 pm
by AG2012
You are right;the needle is fixed,the ring rotates.Thanks a lot.