Thanks to this site I have identified many family silver heirloom items using hallmarks.
On the other hand, I have several Persian items that belonged to my (great) grandfather without hallmarks. The only marking is (what I assume) a family crest "D". The knife and fork have intricate designs. Other silver items in my collection have the same "D" crest.
Note: The green specs in the photos are not visible on the actual pieces
I would welcome comments about these items.
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah3 ... a093bc.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah3 ... 1f6b41.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah3 ... 948adf.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah3 ... 09630b.jpg
http://i1383.photobucket.com/albums/ah3 ... 74b3aa.jpg
(admin photo edit - images too large - link only - see Posting Requirements )
Persian Silver Items
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explorer6970
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:48 pm
- Location: Hank, S. Florida, USA
Re: Persian Silver Items
Welcome to the Forums.
Without hallmarks, the country of origin can only be determined from provenance, style, material, method of manufacture, and comparison to comparable items that have been positively identified.
Had you not asserted that these are Persian, I would have assumed they were Kutch, so I wonder how you have arrived at this determination if you are uncertain about the meaning of the "D" crest. What are these other silver items with the same crest? I wonder where they hail from, if they have clear hallmarks, and if they could provide clues to the origin and age of the fork and knife. Could it merely be the case that someone in your family associated with the letter "D" was very fond of having all sorts of things monogrammed?
In short, I suggest posting images of some of the other pieces with the same crest as well any marks on those pieces.
My apologies if these are not the sort of comments you are hoping for. Someone else may come closer to hitting the mark.
Regards
DR
Without hallmarks, the country of origin can only be determined from provenance, style, material, method of manufacture, and comparison to comparable items that have been positively identified.
Had you not asserted that these are Persian, I would have assumed they were Kutch, so I wonder how you have arrived at this determination if you are uncertain about the meaning of the "D" crest. What are these other silver items with the same crest? I wonder where they hail from, if they have clear hallmarks, and if they could provide clues to the origin and age of the fork and knife. Could it merely be the case that someone in your family associated with the letter "D" was very fond of having all sorts of things monogrammed?
In short, I suggest posting images of some of the other pieces with the same crest as well any marks on those pieces.
My apologies if these are not the sort of comments you are hoping for. Someone else may come closer to hitting the mark.
Regards
DR
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explorer6970
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:48 pm
- Location: Hank, S. Florida, USA
Re: Persian Silver Items
All the items in question have the "D" crest, the last name of my grandfather. Starting in the late 1800's, my grandfather lived in, produced and imported to NYC oriental rugs from Persia. He was well known in the 'old country' and it is quite possible he commissioned the pieces personally.
Here's an example of an ornately etched card case, again with the "D" crest and no hallmarks. I do have many other Middle Eastern silver items with hallmarks that I plan to post later.
This "D" crest really has me bugged. Unfortunately my parents and grandparents are long gone.
Here's an example of an ornately etched card case, again with the "D" crest and no hallmarks. I do have many other Middle Eastern silver items with hallmarks that I plan to post later.
This "D" crest really has me bugged. Unfortunately my parents and grandparents are long gone.
Re: Persian Silver Items
Thank you for posting additional images.
Your theory is very plausible, the monogram is surely something done on commission.
I cannot recall seeing other Persian work with roman alphabet monograms (or for that matter, cartouches) incorporated into the design. He very well may have had these items made for him personally if he went on buying trips. Another possibility is that your great-grandfather's suppliers in Persia had these items made for him as gifts and sent them along with rugs. If they are indeed commissioned pieces from the turn of the 20th century, that might account for the lack of silver marks on the earliest pieces.
If you have records of your great-grandfather's suppliers, most likely these silver items were made locally.
I'm sure everyone reading this forum will appreciate seeing more of these items, especially since older Persian work rarely appears here.
Cheers,
DR
Your theory is very plausible, the monogram is surely something done on commission.
I cannot recall seeing other Persian work with roman alphabet monograms (or for that matter, cartouches) incorporated into the design. He very well may have had these items made for him personally if he went on buying trips. Another possibility is that your great-grandfather's suppliers in Persia had these items made for him as gifts and sent them along with rugs. If they are indeed commissioned pieces from the turn of the 20th century, that might account for the lack of silver marks on the earliest pieces.
If you have records of your great-grandfather's suppliers, most likely these silver items were made locally.
I'm sure everyone reading this forum will appreciate seeing more of these items, especially since older Persian work rarely appears here.
Cheers,
DR
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explorer6970
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:48 pm
- Location: Hank, S. Florida, USA
Re: Persian Silver Items
More mystery pieces with the "D" crest. No hallmarks. Incredible workmanship. Each piece has unique designs.
My grandfather had a reputation as a premier manufacturer of fine Persian carpets - he no doubt knew some great silver artisans.
My best guess is that these pieces were made in the late 1800's. Another (remote) possibility -- the items were made for my great grandfather. an Armenian Priest (cicra 1850).
Napkin holders
My grandfather had a reputation as a premier manufacturer of fine Persian carpets - he no doubt knew some great silver artisans.
My best guess is that these pieces were made in the late 1800's. Another (remote) possibility -- the items were made for my great grandfather. an Armenian Priest (cicra 1850).
Napkin holders
Re: Persian Silver Items
Many thanks for posting these fine photographs of some splendid pieces.
Unfortunately, without hallmarks, it is very difficult to say much about them. I don't know when silver marking began in Persia / Iran, but if I had to guess, I'd say in the last quarter of the 19th century. I hope that someone more knowledgeable will provide more information.
I suspect that the lack of any marks on what looks like a large set for formal entertaining, along with the "D" in shield, must mean that the entire set was custom-ordered by your family directly from the maker. If the pieces never went to market, silver marks may have been deemed unnecessary or may have been left off at the request of the buyer. It may also be the case that the set predates silver marking in a particular locale, in particular if it were distant from major marketplaces.
My guess is that the best line of inquiry into the origins of these pieces will be through genealogy and your family's business records, although eventually a similar set with marks may appear.
If you do learn more about them, please share with the Forum.
Cheers,
David R
Unfortunately, without hallmarks, it is very difficult to say much about them. I don't know when silver marking began in Persia / Iran, but if I had to guess, I'd say in the last quarter of the 19th century. I hope that someone more knowledgeable will provide more information.
I suspect that the lack of any marks on what looks like a large set for formal entertaining, along with the "D" in shield, must mean that the entire set was custom-ordered by your family directly from the maker. If the pieces never went to market, silver marks may have been deemed unnecessary or may have been left off at the request of the buyer. It may also be the case that the set predates silver marking in a particular locale, in particular if it were distant from major marketplaces.
My guess is that the best line of inquiry into the origins of these pieces will be through genealogy and your family's business records, although eventually a similar set with marks may appear.
If you do learn more about them, please share with the Forum.
Cheers,
David R
Re: Persian Silver Items
Hello,
These pieces have a strong Persian / later Kajari resemblance. That letter may well be the incorporation of a family crest or simply personalizing the pieces which were produced by Persian artists..
Regards
These pieces have a strong Persian / later Kajari resemblance. That letter may well be the incorporation of a family crest or simply personalizing the pieces which were produced by Persian artists..
Regards
Re: Persian Silver Items
Hello,
These pieces have a strong Persian Kajari resemblance, however they are not Persian. They are Kashmiri. That letter may well be the incorporation of a family crest or simply personalizing the pieces which were produced by Kashmiri artists..
Regards
These pieces have a strong Persian Kajari resemblance, however they are not Persian. They are Kashmiri. That letter may well be the incorporation of a family crest or simply personalizing the pieces which were produced by Kashmiri artists..
Regards
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WarrenKundis
- contributor
- Posts: 626
- Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2011 3:20 pm
Re: Persian Silver Items
Thank you so much Hada,
That Intrigued me so much that I needed to research that further. Here is a very interesting article with images.
Kashmir - Silver Art on Behance
http://www.behance.net/gallery/17485477 ... Silver-Art
Warren
That Intrigued me so much that I needed to research that further. Here is a very interesting article with images.
Kashmir - Silver Art on Behance
http://www.behance.net/gallery/17485477 ... Silver-Art
Warren
Re: Persian Silver Items
Dear WarrenKundis,
I had initially posted that it was of Persian origin but upon a second glance, I realized they were not. Sorry for the confusion. Thank you for the link.
Regards,
Hada
I had initially posted that it was of Persian origin but upon a second glance, I realized they were not. Sorry for the confusion. Thank you for the link.
Regards,
Hada
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explorer6970
- Posts: 6
- Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 12:48 pm
- Location: Hank, S. Florida, USA
Re: Persian Silver Items
Dear WarrenKundis and Hada,
Thanks so much for your input and links. My grandfather's last name corresponds to the "D" so I'll assume these items were produced for him. He traveled internationally promoting his oriental rug business; he very well may have traded rugs for the silver work!
I'll have to do some research about Kashmiri silver.
Cheers! Hank
Thanks so much for your input and links. My grandfather's last name corresponds to the "D" so I'll assume these items were produced for him. He traveled internationally promoting his oriental rug business; he very well may have traded rugs for the silver work!
I'll have to do some research about Kashmiri silver.
Cheers! Hank