Maker ВЛ Who is it?

[elenabutov]

Hello everybody! Do you know who was maker ВЛ.


Thanks for your willingness to help.

[Ubaranda]

Vasiliy Cyrillovich Lapshin, Moscow, from 1883 till beginning XX century.

[Dad]

The unknown maker from Kiev, I would tell.
I see the greece letterν

[Ubaranda]

I increased the photo and compared this mark with real Kiev's mark. I think the letter is Delta. But it could be V... :-)

[Qrt.S]

Sorry Ubaranda but Dad is right it is not delta but Greek NI (N even if it looks like V) for Kiev. Take a closer look and you will find that the angle is wrong for delta.

Merry Christmas to everybody!

Qrt.S

[elenabutov]

Thank you very much all of you for attention to my question.
The letter in kokoshnik definitely greek "nu"-V.The problem is that I have not found the master with the initials "ВЛ" in Kiev. Счастливого ождества- Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year.

[Qrt.S]

Unfortunately there are a lot of unknown masters in Russia due the unfortunate incident that the authorities in the 1870-thies destroyed hundred thousands of documents as "useless" occupying space only in archives. About the letter's name. Yes, in English "NU" but in Greek "NI",anyway, no big deal.

[Dad]

Unfortunately there are a lot of unknown masters in Russia due the unfortunate incident that the authorities in the 1870-thies destroyed hundred thousands of documents as "useless" occupying space only in archives.

Hi, Qrt.S

Tell about "the unfortunate incident in the 1870-thies" in more detail, please.

[Qrt.S]

I call it "an unfortunate incident" seen from today's point of view and I have told this before. There is not much to tell in addition to what I have already written. In about 1872 the official archives were crowded with all kind of documents etc. The authorities decided to make space and destroy unnecessary material/papers. The register of Russian goldsmiths was considered as worthless information to save. It only occupied space in the archives. Therefore it was burned alongside with other "useless/worthless" documentation. That is one of the reasons why there are today so many nameless Russian maker's marks as you very well know. This ВЛ from Kiev is only one example. There is also a similar problem with the nameless assayers. You see too often "Неизвестый (пробнрный) мастер" in among other books in Postnikova-Loseva...I have a vague memory that this was mentioned in Ivanov, but I'm not sure at all....I have too many books...;-))))) Anyway, factum est!

[Zolotnik]

It would be very helpful to name your sources - just to say something is one thing - to prove it in any form another! Otherwise it is just gossip....

[Zolotnik]

Just to say something is one thing - to prove it another! Otherwise it is just gossip. If you have so many books - why not use them and name the titles. even if they are from 1951 (top actuel??)?

[Qrt.S]

I'm not on trial here or am I? Yes, I have many books. Do you Zolotnik really believe that I have memorized them all? That would be the case indeed! Anyway, one source is as I already mentioned Ivanov's book. Please find an extract below. When I remember where I have seen it or find some more I will show it here in due time....maybe.



Revealing the sources will, however, start an endless discussion of the respective source's reliability and of course rise new questions like "what is the source's source and what about the source's source's source reliability? It is up to you whether you believe me or not and if not it is your problem to find another solution, answer or whatever...

Next time you claim that a showed object is spurious and I disagree, you better show some real proof or evidence otherwise I keep it as mumbo-jumbo talk coming from you. Just claiming it being a fake is not enough anymore.

Merry Christmas to you and all attendants in these Russian sites.

Qrt.S

[Zolotnik]

Unfortunately, some people are incapable of resolving disputes in a mature and professional manner. It becomes a full time game and distracts the Moderators from letting the forum be what it is intended to be - a congenial gathering place for fans of Russian Silver.
If the source for a certain contribution is shown nobody will try to denounce this source unless it is pure nonsense. That is what will make some disussions richer and more honest - the whole world is working like that! Senseless sources will always be sensless sources.

Fakes
people flexing their "look - it's an authentic piece" muscle a bit too quickly. Some people spend some time looking at objects or reading some books and once they have just enough knowledge to be dangerous they like to show it off. To detect fakes you need much experience and must be up to date with the latest productions - that means you must handle several false objects per day/week to not loose the connection, next to a meaningful own collection of authentic pieces for comparasion. If you do not have the opportunity of both - it is better to remain silent instead answering with something like: "....it could be orginal but also spourious, on the the other side it is well made and was not expensive...."
There is a not small resposibility which is turned over to the person giving a unqualified answer. One should consider that.
Just my 2 cents!

[Qrt.S]

Mumble-jumble, only words dear Zolotnik. I showed proofs as requested. Where are yours that show you have the necessary experience?

[Zolotnik]

Unfortunately, some people are incapable of resolving disputes in a mature and professional manner!

[Dad]

Hi, Lovers of Russian Silver!

Don't swear before Christmas.

Don't worry, be happy .... ))))

Qrt.S. I don't know such problem. Data about regional silversmiths are stored in archives of these regions. Unfortunately, during revolution and wars these archives could suffer. In particular, Kiev archive. More that: often you saw silver products with the Kiev punches before 1880 ? ))
About P.-L. I can tell that she (they) worked with regional archives a very little. Therefore it hasn't enough data.

[Qrt.S]

@Dad

Well, now you know :-) I have seen similar text in other sources and I find it quite possible that "at the time "unnecessary papers" were destroyed. It happens still today.

Moreover, if the Russian archives would be intact, why is there such huge amounts of nameless maker's marks and some assayer's marks appearing on one object after another? One example again in this thread. No one knows who is this ВЛ from Kiev? I don't think it is lack of interest or no researching done but for the simple reason that there is no documentation to fall back to. The Russian silver mark "bible" is almost the only one available source Postnikova ......or those numerous crap copies of it.
Talking about books. I recently bought this "Silver mark book" over Internet and therefore it was impossible to check the content.
And what did I get, again a lousy Postnikova copy! Well with a lot of very nice pictures but that was about all. A useless book when it comes to marks if you have access to the original Postnikova.

Happy New Year
Qrt.S

[Zolotnik]

Here some very useful books - sorry for the size - but there is a limited size allowed only. For special interest ask for larger size.





Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Yes, many good books. Please do notice that book AA02 is Postnikova-Loseva's edition UNVES from 1995 and the "bible", book AA02a is the German version of Postnikova's first incomplete edition from 1967 and not worth to buy if you have Postnikova's NAUKA 1983 or UNVES 1995 editions. The later editions have complemented information. Both editions are, anyway, similar, UNVES is only a new print copy of NAUKA.
FYI!
Book AA04Watts is a poor version of Postnikova full with faults, mistakes and misspellings. Absolutely not worth to buy. The problem is the same as I mentioned in my previous input. AA13 is a very interesting book but it was due to copyright reasons withdrawn from the market and difficult to find but worth to buy.

Please also note that rather few books contain good lists of masters and pictures/soot marks of their marks but lots of good pictures.

If you manage to find the book showed below, buy it irrespective of it rather poor English and some incompleteness. It is a good book. However, a minor warning! It is expensive.


Here is also another book worth to buy but difficult to get.

[Qrt.S]

@Zolotnik

I forgot to mention about the book "Russian Silver" that it contains 431 lovely pictures of cigarette cases. As I know that you are particularly interested in those this book is for you absolutely worth to buy.