Russian beaker

[liviu1]

Hello,
Can anyone help me identify the maker for this beautiful Russian beaker, please?
Thank you.

[AG2012]

What`s this under late 18th century Moscow mark? Looks like an overstruck mark (red arrow). Or corroded silver? Take a loupe and inspect carefully, please. If there is a mark then it`s most probably Hanau.

[liviu1]

Hi. Not hanau. Moscow around 1750. The year is on the opposite side of your red arrow but slitly overstruck by the makers mark. Regards, Liv.

[AG2012]

OK if so.
Intact gilding after 250 years?
What about Tremolierstich on Russian silver?
Are the style and the decor matching mid-18th century Russian silver?
Eagerly waiting to hear opinions on this.

[Qrt.S]

Is absolutely impossible that the assaying mark would be over-struck by the maker's mark on an authentic Russian object. The first mark is without any exceptions the maker's mark. You see it strictly was forbidden by law to the assayer to punch his mark unless there was no marker's mark already punched. If he did that and was caught, he was severely punished and in worst case sent to prison in Siberia.

Take a closer look, which one of the marks is punched first. If it turns out that the assaying mark is over-struck with the maker's mark, your object is a fake and AG2012 suspicions of a mark under the assaying mark could be right.

If it is the other way the situation is different. The assaying mark I Ш belongs to Ivan Schagin 1748-1757 in Moscow. The maker's mark is a mess, no idea!

[liviu1]

Hi. Makers mark first and then St. George. I think till 1751 used because the top of the St. George mark is straight and not curved. The makers letters are P in Russian but because of St. George looks shorter, then russian C and the I but not the russian one. At the bottom of the mark there is a sort of a three leaf clover. Regards, Liv.

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
in my opinion the beaker was later "upgraded" to a "Russian beaker". The form, size and motiv (hearts) are not Russian. See typical beakers from this timeframe:






Regards
Zolotnik

[piette]

Hi all,
A piece clearly not in the Russian style. I agree with AG - the over struck marks (of which there are more than one) look like Hanau to me, and the style fits.
P

[liviu1]

Hi all. I agree that the hearts decoration is not common for russian silver but I do have another beaker that has hearts, about the same time but has the shape of the beakers pictured, usual shape. On that one the last 2 digits are clear, 51. Will post tomorrow. This one actually is a tumbler, I think. With regards to the shape, it is similar to a charka but it is larger. Is it Hanau ? In my opinion, no. Fire gilding on Hanau pieces ?

[Qrt.S]

No, it is not exactly Russian style and it looks somehow suspicious but I have a strange feeling.....if still...check P#2791...could be or not...?

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
if PL #2791 and legit it should have a heart shape - I think this contures belong to some Hanau pseudomarks - as already stated: Tremolierstrich on Russian silver???? Too many red flags to be comfortable.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Undoubtedly, however, the Tremolierstrich seems to be on the maker's mark so it could haveen made later. But you are right something strange with this object.

[Dad]

I think it's original. It's not beaker. It's charka (чарка). Near 123 mL ?

For example:

[liviu1]

The mark as I can see it is a combination between P#2832 the shape and the lettering of P# 2838. The other beaker that I have actually has the P#2832 mark. The heart decorations are very similar on both beakers. Will post tomorrow. Regards, Liv.

[liviu1]

As promised, more pictures,

[AG2012]

Code: Select all

The heart decorations are very similar on both beakers.

Actually, the last post helped a lot with two identical decors. Have seen this; an unscrupulous dealer was selling two Augsburg 17th century beakers with exactly the same décor and placed them side by side. What’s the chance to acquire two Russian silver vessels with the same décor after 250 years? Or Petr Semenov copied the unknown maker # PL 2838, or vice versa, mid 18th century, and both vessels were extremely lucky to survive until reunion at the same place and at the same time after 250 years. To be honest I would rather engage in lottery, regardless of maker`s marks, assayers and St George.
There is much more to discuss; let’s have in mind these beakers are supposed to be made using raising hammer on the stake, meaning a single sheet of silver was used and raised, not a band of silver and soldered longitudinally and at the bottom. Of course, this is difficult to tell unless the beakers are inspected closely.

[liviu1]

They were both bought together, not found one and then the other. Being very similar, I am asking if they were made by the same maker. The PS mark that is on the beaker is in Postnikova but the other is not. The PSI exists as well but I think, unknown but diferent shape of the mark. The shape exists for the PS mark. Regards, Liv.

[AG2012]

I was talking about statistical odds on and odds against. If you are optimistic enough and trust the seller who had two identical decor Moscow beakers mid-18th century, that's fine with me.

[liviu1]

There were 3. The 3rd was a charka with a jeton underneath, no marks. Old anyway, not fake.

[liviu1]

Are there any references with regards to the AK assayer that is on the second one? I could not find anything.