Silver gilt cloisonné and en plein enamel box?

[EllicottCity]

How about this one? Of course the Faberge mark is fake. The maker’s mark I believe is in Cyrillic, so it should be ДЕ and not the Roman AE. Somewhere I once found reference to a Russian enameler and silversmith named Dmitry Egorov (or Yegorov). Do you think this might be his work?

[oel]

Hi welcome to the forum.

Spurious (hall) marks, pseudo twisted wire, all wrong but I like the violets.



Oel.

[EllicottCity]

Thanks, oel. They are pansies, actually (I don't need an expert for that one). There's no question that the Faberge mark is spurious and was added later, but the other marks were apparently applied at a different time, presumably earlier. This was in a collection of my late father, he would have acquired it 30 years ago or more. Of course that does not mean it is genuine, but if it is fake it is an older fake.

[oel]

'The quality goes in before the name goes on but not in this case


Д Е in oval shield could be for: Dmitri Alexandrovich Egorov, registered in Moscow from 1866-1896. Egorov is mentioned for enameled silver work. Postnikova-L #2408 & #2409
The so called 2nd Kokoshnik hallmark which appears to show at your box, has been used 1908- 1926, meaning Egorov could not be the maker of your box. Perhaps the maker’s mark does not read Д Е but AE or another explanation?

The detachable parts or both halves of the box should have been (hall) marked, please check. In order not to damage the enamel all marks are struck before the enamel is applied. Why take the risk to ruin a good Russian Silver gilt enamel box with a Faux-bergé mark? Looking at the box, the quality of the enamel I can only assume the box to be a complete imitation with spurious marks. The marks should be punch marks but the marks could be cast. Cast marks are almost always blurred with impressions of uneven depth. Stamped marks are generally much cleaner and sharper than cast marks.
Let us wait for the Russian contributors to give their opinion.

Indeed good quality imitation Fabergé luxury items have been produced in the former USSR and perhaps even in Russia under the Tsar.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/roadshow/fts/at ... 05A40.html


For real Russian enameled silver art see:
http://vmfa.museum/visit/wp-content/upl ... ulture.pdf
http://www.auctioncentralnews.com/index ... g-artistry
Pansies and violets both belong to the genus Viola; like you pointed out to me they also have some differences. Indeed I like the Pansies.


Best,

Oel.

[Qrt.S]

Nothing particular to add, Oel's answer is correct. I share his opinion completely. If I must say something it is that the box enameled pattern does not look Russian. The marks seems to be cast and they are too many. Really interesting to know if there are marks on the other half too (should be). The mid mark in the lower row is strange and not likely a Russian mark. What is it?
Somehow I seem similarities with the napkin ring in the other thread, but...?

Fakes have been fabricated almost from the beginning of mankind, nothing new with that...

[EllicottCity]

So now I have looked carefully at the lid as suggested, and I can find no hallmark anywhere, which I understand from this and other threads to be conclusive. The picture below of the lid inside shows what I had thought were some scratches, but when I looked more closely now I think it might have been an inscription or dedication of some kind. However, it is worn away too much to make it out. For your possible interest I am including a clearer picture of the marks on the bottom. The lower middle mark includes the numbers 548, I would be interested in learning what that was intended to mean. I noticed when looking at the inside bottom that the Faberge mark and the lower two marks caused a slight indentation on the inner surface, but the upper three marks did not. I also found two enameled spoons among my father's collection, perhaps I will post pictures of those if I am not trying your patience too much. Many thanks again for your expert advice.

[oel]

It appears to look like a later Soviet mark used 1927-1955 to indicate silver 875/1000 fineness. Postnikova-L #30


Oel.

[Zolotnik]

Hi ElicottCity -
the other shown marks are Soviet marks from the years 1927-1946 for Moscow. Turn them 180 degrees and you can read them The silver content is 875/1000. the same as 84 Zolotniki.
Someone let his object rehallmarking with the at that time current marks - in wide use in that years, to show that you are willing to"legalize" your ""bourgeois/dekadent" property.




Regards
Zolotnik

[dognose]

Hi EllicottCity,

Welcome to the Forum.

perhaps I will post pictures of those if I am not trying your patience too much

We never tire of seeing such pieces and will delighted to see other items from your collection.

Trev.

[EllicottCity]

Oel, Zolotnik,

Yes, it makes much more sense when you invert it! Why didn't I think of that? Another fascinating history lesson, thank you.

[Qrt.S]

the Faberge mark and the lower two marks caused a slight indentation on the inner surface,

What you said above is rather typical for a fake. This "indentation" on the opposite side of the surface is called impression mark and will often occur when a mark is punched. However, the crucial thing is that on an authentic Russian object this impression mark was immediately removed by every maker especially if it was on an visible place. That is typical Russian quality. Fakers do not care so much about this, so always look for these impression marks. If you see one, leave the object and go away. If there is one fake there are probably more...

Mind my saying, but an impression mark on a authentic Fabergé object is more than a catastrophe...!!! It is more or less impossible!

When you as well see something, anything, removed/destroyed/over stamped etc (or missing like marks) ...see a red flag immediately and hear bells ringing.... Nothing is supposed to be "removed" from an old object. Why would it? You might know the answer, don't you?

Sorry Zolotnik, no more about fakes ...

[Zolotnik]

Hi -
there is one little exeption, which have nothing to do with fakes - in my collection I have several exemplares (cigarette cases) where the donation textes, names of female friends (lovers?),
lewd applikations etc., have been removed or sanded at a later time for personal reasons -but the nice object was preserved.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

These are original Russian punches 1908 + later Soviet repunches 1927-1954 . By rules 1908 if the assay master couldn't punch mark on other parts of a product (the product was brought in finished form), he punch the certificate sign (guarantee mark) in a round cartouche near the main mark (oval). In this case on other parts punches will be absent.




Of course punch faberge is a fake. Later.

[Qrt.S]

Mind my asking but who is the master? In addition, there are no marks on the lid only on the body. Kindly remember that detachable parts should be marked...

[Qrt.S]

Sorry sent it too early. There are no reasons why the master would have been unable to punch his marks on the lid. There is plenty of space to punch the marks and they are punched before the box is enameled.

[oel]

Hi,
If we look at the last image sent by the OP, we do not have to doubt if the hallmarks are cast or punched. The marks are true punch marks; a slight indentation is not alarming, and proves the marks have been punched and the indentations not corrected. The lid of the box is original and not a marriage, as already said a text has been erased and perhaps re-gilded; hallmarks could have been erased too. And more important the outside of the lid has been enameled. What Dad writes makes sense: By rules 1908 if the assay master couldn't punch mark on other parts of a product (the product was brought in finished form), he punch the certificate sign (guarantee mark) in a round cartouche near the main mark (oval). In this case on other parts punches will be absent.
The twisted wire and quality of the enamel; indeed Russia has produced some highly skilled silversmiths with famous names making top quality items for the wealthy Russian citizen nobles and royalties at home and abroad. Perhaps we have to admit not all Russian silversmiths could afford and/or live up to those high quality standards and made run of the mill silver items & lower quality items.
Postnikova-L is outdated and not without omissions and blanks. In the 19th- early 20th century hallmark rules changed in Europe, silver factories mass produced good quality items and low quality run of the mill silver items, many silversmiths were struggling to survive as well. Could we say the same happened in Russia?

Oel

[EllicottCity]

Just to be clear, the marks circled in red on the photo below have a corresponding indentation on the inside of the box, but there is no indentation for the marks circled in green.

[oel]

Hi EllicottCity,

It all makes sense those 'red' marks have been added later, somewhere in 1927-1954, when the silversmith was long out of the picture. I have seen many silver boxes with later added (tax) marks which caused visible deformation to the opposite site of the punch mark. The first (hall) marks punched (1908- 1926) the caused indentations /deformations have been corrected by the silversmith.

I believe the enameled silver box and (hall) marks to be original and with a later added pseudo Faberge mark. Thanks you brought up this interesting case and the lessons learned.

Best,

Oel.

[AG2012]

Not much to ad to previous comments but ``Faberge`` hinge!

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
after some comments the object was upgraded from fake to authentic......

With regret I must say that the knowledge about fakes is very low on this forum of "experts"- It's probably because that most neither original objects nor fakes have ever had in their hands to compare and their"knowledge" relate mostly from the forum or from various books. There are several countries involved in this business - the production is semi-industrial, the marketing is very professional also. Depending on the country you have different qualities (grade of authenticity in form, colour, style ,technique and marking). Among collectors it is already noticed that double marking (re-hallmarking from Estonia Republic or Sovjet marks) is more often used to convience the customer. There are numerous give aways on this false pieces - the most dominant are the technical and aesthetic deviations from an original. Fakers do not copy - they use look alike optic. It must be cheap in production - not authentic. One of the reasons why more and more phantasy products show up, without any references to existing forms. The customers do not care -they lack the fundamental knowledge. I do not want to go deeper into the matter,just my question: if you do not know in the least how the real objects and marks should look - how can you realize that you hold a fake in your hand? The lack of knowledge makes the business of fakers simple and straightforward. - The reason why they are getting bolder and bolder.
Here some examples out from many hundreds every day - all with blotchy, plump and shiny but brandnew enamel, vulgar colours, bad crafted and funny not existing forms. I only show two marks - exept of the kinky form the objects were sold...
Maybe it helps you to make better decisions!



Source: Internet

Regards
Zolotnik