French makers mark "GG"

[chamberlin]

I have a silver soup spoon with three marks: In the middle, The rooster seems to denote that it was made between 1798 and 1809 in Paris, and 950/1000 fineness (according to a website I visited). The symbol on the right seems to be the guaranty with a man's face, with 8 written to the left , and 5 to the right of his face (from the same period). If someone can verify that, I would be grateful.

Also, can anyone tell me about the makers symbol on the left with the initals "GG" and what seems to be a vulcano ? Any explanation of this symbol would be appreciated.

[JayT]

Yes, confirm the rooster is the 950 silver standard mark for Paris 1798-1809 and the head in an oval reserve is the guarantee mark for Paris for the same period. I refer you to the excellent section on French marks right here on this website. Just pull down the World Marks tab on the menu bar at the top of the page.

As for the maker, you have another object by someone who started his career before the Revolution. Gabriel Gerbu was a flatware maker working at 12 Quai de l'Ecole in Paris. He registered this mark in 1798. The symbols are a butterfly and a rosette (un papillon et une rosette). I don't know what meaning these symbols had for him. No date is given for cessation of activity, but he was mentioned in the trade journal l'Amanach Azur until 1822. Your spoon was made between 1798 and 1809.

Here is some information on Gerbu's pre-Revolutionary career: he was apprenticed on 28 December 1765, and recorded his master's mark on 2 March 1782. He worked on rue de Harley until 1793, then moved his premises to Quai de l'Ecole where he manufactured and had a retail shop.

See Arminjon, v. 1, no. 01320, p. 156 and Nocq, v. 2, p. 237.

Hope this helps.

[chamberlin]

Thanks again, JayT!

Oddly enough, we have 6 silver spoons and 6 silver forks, but from two different makers and two different periods.

5 forks and 5 spoons have only two marks. They were made in 1838, in Paris, and 950/1000 fineness. They were made by Pierre François Quiellé.

JayT, you have identified the maker of the 6th fork and 6th spoon as Gabriel Gerbu , but made at least 30 years earlier from 1798 - 1809.

Yet all of these forks and spoons have the same thing in common: they are all engraved with the family name "Thorel" (see photo) supposedly at the same time.

Can you or anyone else tell me anything about the style of the engraving? Could it date from 1838, or was it added at a later time? Can you tell if the style is from Paris or maybe germanic (Swiss) ?

I appreciate the help!

[JayT]

Hello chamberlin -
Thanks for showing a picture of the flatware, always informative (and courteous) to those researching the marks. Here are some random thoughts on your flatware:
-Not odd that you have a grouping of the same pattern by different makers. Over time it is not unusual for families to add to or replace silver. If the pattern is a standard one, as in this case, matching is not difficult.
-Thorel is a French family name. Full name engraving however is not usual in France; monograms are preferred. The engraving style appears nineteenth century to me, but an expert in engraving styles could tell you more.
-Just a note of clarification. The Minerva head silver standard mark does not give a precise date for manufacture as it was in use from 1838-1972, and the Queillé firm produced through most of the nineteenth century. However the placement of the marks on the stems rather than in the bowls suggest a date close to 1838.

Good luck with your ongoing research.

[chamberlin]

Thank you, JayT for all of your information. Your expertise is most appreciated.

Thanks for pointing out that the Minerva mark may not be 1838 but could be later. I realize that I looked wrongly at the information and it seems that the mark began to be used in 1838. From what we know in the family, the year they were made could be a bit later, but not by many years - as you also indicate.

I think it is strange that there are not knives that go along with this set - or through the decades they inadvertently got placed with some other silver. I'll have to have a look. Maybe I will post them next week if I cannot decipher the marks on them.

Thanks again.

[JayT]

My pleasure to help.

Knives were made by a separate trade in France (cutlers). Only later in the nineteenth century did cutlers begin to collaborate with silversmiths to supply knife blades that fit handles made by a silversmith. Also knives become damaged much more easily than other flatware, so don't survive as well as other items. In any case it is perfectly acceptable to use knives with horn, bone, wood or other handles when using your French flatware.

[chamberlin]

Interesting information for me. Thanks, JayT.