Groping in the dark

[amena]

Hi all
I ask for help to shed some light on this odd object that I found.

It has four marks that seem of eighteenth century, but they can also appear from Hanau.
One could be the mastermark that contains the initials GG beside a pointed shape that I could not identify and above a quadruped also not identified.
This mark has been struck three times, once in a larger format and twice in a smaller size.
Then there is another mark that could be a crowned M.
I did not find a match in the marks shown in the page of Hanau.
Not the first time that I find an object of which I don't know the marks, but this time I have not the slightest idea what could serve such an object.
Here is a picture of the section of the object.

Every opinion, even a faint feeling is wellcome.
Regards
Amena

[dognose]

Hi Amena,

My gut-feeling is that the item is French. I'll move the topic to the French section to see if someone can tell us more.

Trev.

[JayT]

Hello Amena
To shed a little light on your object: this is a French tastevin, or wine tasting cup. This particular form is called un tastevin à ombilic or belly-button shaped cup, characteristic of, but not limited to, the Bordeaux region. Mr. Google could tell you a lot more about the history and use of wine tasting cups. At 11cm, this is a particularly large example.

Tastevins are picturesque and charming objects that have been collected for over 200 years. Interest in them has led to many reproductions and outright fakes.

In general one should find 4 different marks on French eighteenth century silver: the maker, the silver standard which also serves as a date letter, a charge mark and a discharge mark. In some cases if the maker was from a small town far away from the regional marking office, he would mark the object twice. Having 3 maker's marks is a bit suspect: either a deliberate fraud or a duty dodger. Whatever the case, you'll have to do a bit of research to find the maker GG.

Good luck and best regards.

[amena]

Hi Jay T
Thank you very much for the identification of the object.
Rather than a little light I would speak of a flash light.
Talking with a friend we had thought of a Tastevin, but we had rejected the idea because of the lack of a handle.I did not know of the existence of this type of Tastevin.
Ignoring what the object was, I was in doubt on the antiquity of the piece because I thought that no one would bother to fake something so trivial, but the information that these objects are very collected, makes me lean more towards a fake.
Marks are too crisp to be more than 200 years old.
Anyway, for the money that I spent, I'm happy with my purchase, and also to have learned something.
Best
Amena

[JayT]

These cups are handy to have around the house or office, and make good conversation pieces.

Enjoy your purchase!

[amena]

Hello Jay
after that you have shown me the way I continued the research.
I was amazed at how related to wine articles are collected in France, but I am literally stunned by the absolutely exorbitant prices.
I also wrote to a few antique dealers who kindly responded.
The Tastevin was recognized as a piece of the eighteenth century by Gabriel Graves, became a master in Nantes in 1746 and died in 1790.
It seems that the triple punching silversmith is not abnormal and that means that the silversmith was a subscriber. (maitre abonné)
Someone has just found it odd that they were used two different sizes of punches.
Different assessments on the crowned M.
For someone it would be the date mark of 1732, and in this case something would be wrong, because Gabriel Graves became a master in 1746; for others it is an unknown mark.
I do not have the knowledge nor the sources to comment on the matter.
Relata refero.
Any comments from someone more experienced than me will be very welcome and useful to everyone, I think.
Best

[JayT]

Hello Amena

Good news that you found a possible maker for your tastevin. However, I still question the authenticity of this piece.

A quick review: Under the ancien régime (pre-Revolution) in France, all silver had to have 4 marks: maker, silver standard which also served as a date letter, charge and discharge marks. Every master supposedly had two marks: small for small objects and large for large objects. Sometimes these marks looked different one from the other. In general makers usually used only one mark which they applied to all their work no matter the size.

For towns or villages where there weren't enough silversmiths to have either a guild to verify the silver content of an object or a mint to collect taxes, a master silversmith (maître) could enter into an agreement (un abonnement) with the nearest tax office to collect taxes himself and later to submit them to the tax official. These makers were called maîtres abonnés. A maître abonné would mark the item 2 or 3 times with his own mark to replace the usual silver standard and charge marks. While recognized as a necessity for practical and security reasons, this practice was frowned upon by French officials because of the potential for tax fraud, and actively discouraged. Silver with the marks of maîtres abonnés is sought after by collectors.

Nantes, where your purported maker is from, was the capital of a formal jurisdiction and therefore would not have been a place where there were maîtres abonnés. There would have been no need in Nantes, or the towns of Lorient, Pontivy, Quimper or Vannes in the jurisdiction, as there were guilds and tax offices in Nantes itself and each of these outlying towns.

There is a crowned M silver standard mark from Nantes for 1732, but it does not resemble the crowned M on your piece in my opinion.

I am not a licensed expert, but would argue that your tastevin is not authentic for the following reasons:
-An object marked as if it were by a maître abonné, but the maker is from a jurisdiction that did not have maîtres abonnés, in this case Nantes.
-Mix of large and small maker marks on a single object.
-A silver standard mark that does not correspond to the dates of activity of the purported maker, and that doesn't resemble the mark for Nantes in 1732.
-A purported silver standard mark on an object that also has marks of a maître abonné. This is not logical.
-The large size of the tastevin (11 cm).
-The uniform depth of the marks.

As I've written on this forum before, French tastevins are an endless source of fakery and reproductions. I'm open to any further research, but right now I think yours is a fake.

Sorry that this is not a better holiday gift for you.

[amena]

Hello Jay T
I read with great interest your very detailed and didactic considerations.
After all we are here to exchange opinions and knowledge.
As I said I do not have the knowledge to comment on the matter but I also I am convinced that when the market price of an object is too much higher than the cost of production, it is obvious that counterfeiters are celebrating, as bags of famous designers confirm.
Do not worry, your remarks did not sadden my holidays
Best wishes
Amena