Beaker - Silver or Silver Plate?

[Pooka]

Hello,

This beaker may well be solid silver but as I cannot for want of money work out the marks on it I have posted my query in this silver plate forum. Can anyone please identify the marks? I think I see a Maltese cross, the letters ? LT and a crossed Z in the sequence. I did a silver test on the underside of the beaker and the result was positive for solid silver but I still feel it may not be.

Many thanks in advance for any help,

Greg.

[dognose]

Hi Greg,

Yes, it is silver, the centre mark I believe is the Danzig town mark.

I'll move the topic to the Other Countries section of the forum.

Trev.

[Pooka]

Thanks Trev for the lead! Off to try and research the item again!

Greg.

[AG2012]

This is from Rosenberg; the assayer # 1533 in Danzig (1814 – 1819)

[AG2012]

Excuse me, it was this one

[Pooka]

Thanks AG2012 for the info : ) . I'm so pleased the beaker is this old!

[Pooka]

Hi again,

I've been looking through the posts on Danzig silver and there is much of interest but I could not get a definitive explanation of the marks I submitted. I then tried to find the Rosenberg reference book but when I followed the link the book was not there.

I get that the middle mark is that of Danzig. Is LT the maker or the assayer or even the alderman!!!? And is this LT a known silversmith? Is the 'Z' really a 'Z' and is this the mark of the assayer or maker or the alderman or even a date letter!? Would I be right in guessing also that my beaker is 13 lot? Any clarification would be really welcome!

Greg.

[AG2012]

I searched Rosenberg for you. ``Die folgende Zeichen der Aelterleute als Beschaumeister und ihre Datierung sind v.Czihak …``
Translated: `` The following marks of aldermen as assayers and their dating from Czihak (book published in 1908)``
There are only two 19th century silversmiths in Rosenberg. One of them was alderman, too. ``Lt`` is not among them.
So, ``Lt`` could be the maker and also the assayer (Beschaumeister) for several years.
Date letters for Danzig are not mentioned in Rosenberg.
The last letter recorded by Czihak is ``W`` (# 1537), used 1841 /1849. So, there is a possibility letter ``Z`` existed, too, and was used later, when ``Lt`` was still working, but was not ``Beschaumeister`` at the time.
Letter ``Z`` is more likely to be assayer`s mark than maker`s mark, being a single letter mark.
As far as I can see dating of assayers was not consistent, years overlap, aldermen used either a single letter mark or two and three-letter -mark, obviously their own maker`s mark.
My assumptions are based on Rosenberg and Czihak.
Regards

[Scotrab]

Following AG2012 answer, I attach the complete entry for (Carl) Moritz Stumpf, Ältermann in Danzig 1840, 1845, 1850, 1851 as AG2012 indicated. The entry is on page 46 of the 1908 edition of v. Czihak's book, vol. 2.
The Victoria and Albert Museum library has a copy of the book and a couple of years ago I spent several hours photographing the pages for the marks of the silversmiths and oldermen in Danzig.
The leftmost mark is in my opinion the mark for (Carl) Moritz Stumpf and the maker's mark is the righmost one. There is no indication in v. Czihak for a silversmith with the letter Z, I don't know who he is.
Incidentally, the first two marks in AG2012 posting are those for Carl Stumpf, Ältermann 1814, 1818, 1819, also on page 46 of v. Czihak's book, vol. 2. v. Czihak differentiates the two Stumpf with the brackets around Carl for the younger Stumpf.

[Pooka]

Do you know, I cannot quite say thankyou enough for all the quality answers I've received but I'll try - THANKYOU! If I could buy you folks a pint I would : ).

All the best,

Greg.

[Scotrab]

And I overlooked something...
I went back and looked through the dozens of photographs I have of the pages of von Czihak's book and on page 89 I found the following:



(Translation: Named in 1836 as goldsmith (1 Damm 1115), entered the profession in 1838 and lived in 1839, 1846, 1864, 1870 in the Große Wollwebergasse 5)

von Czihak does NOT show the maker's mark for Johann David Zacharias but he is the only silversmith with Z in the name and the period in which he is described as being active coincides well with period in which Carl Moritz Stumpf was in office as Olderman in Danzig. It is not impossible that Zacharias made the beaker but without direct proof that Z is really his maker's mark we have only circumstantial evidence.

[dognose]

A quick Google search reveals (if I understand it correctly) a somewhat earlier business operated under the style of 'J.D. Zacharias & Sohn'.

The National Museum at Nürnberg has a spoon with the maker's mark "J.D. Zacharias & Son " and the crown over two crosses for Danzig, letter K probably for Johann Friedrich Kretschmer (Alderman 1809, 1813, 1817), probably about 1813.

I wonder if the 1836 reference may refer to the son of the above.

Trev.

[AG2012]

All Beschaumeister in Danzig (from Rosenberg).For future reference (it seems the book is no longer available online).