Italien Salt celler two pieces Empire style

[Hose_dk]

I have been to Italy and got these. Very nice ornament - empire style anno 1800 and a bit. I know they are younger. I also know that I have seen the mark before but dont know where.

I think that they are very nice.

They both have marks in 2 places. The golden Innerbowl.

These marks are only visible when you clean the innerbowl. Its fastened with a bajonet lock mechanism.

Marks on the outside.
Both pieces have the same similar set of marks both inside and outside.
My question is regarding the hallmarks - time, place, maker.

And I know - such a pair is to good to be true. And I also no they are not.

[oel]

Hi Hose_dk

The mark of Romeo Miracoli e Figlio srl- Milano, comes close but.... have some doubts?
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... ano#p66172
http://www.silvercollection.it/ITALIANSILVERMARKS.html


http://www.romeomiracoli.com/contact-usit/

Best,

Peter

[Hose_dk]

Thanks that was fast reply.
I seems as the prayers book have 2 different "snake marks" where of one is pretty close.
You have doubt - why?

[oel]

Your welcome, the maker's marks of Romeo Miracoli, shown by silvercollection are not clear for good comparison. The 2nd mark on your cellar could be a pseudo mark. Let us wait what amena has to say about your marks.

Peter

[amena]

Hello
I do not think that is the trademark of Romeo Miracoli. His mark is more triangular and the serpent better drawn. However it must be said that the snake is not the exclusive brand of Miracoli, is a coat of arms of Milan. If you google "biscione milano" you can see a lot. So how in the Veneto there are several St. Mark's lions as a trademark from different manufacturers, different manufacturers Milanese or Lombard may have chosen the "biscione" as trademark.
Even Berlusconi chose the snake as trademark for many of its businesses
The mark 800 in the rectangle is characteristic of the late 1800s, early 1900s.
Regards
Amena

[Hose_dk]

Thanks
Thats interesting.
The case is - I collect silver and I like to buy af piece of local silver when on holyday. I have no idea of Italian silver - i.e. have generel knowledge, and in Rome.
Fell for these - to expensive, but bought anyhow. My first Italian piece. Misread age - bought in the context that they where older. Simple neglected the 800 when I was in buying mode. So its partly a lesson. They look nice and the idea of 18/19 hundreds is a good news.

[amena]

Here's an example of a silversmith (Cesare Marinai, 304 MI) that has the "biscione" as trademark

Regards
Amena

[Hose_dk]

Thanks
So we could expect that a number used some variation of that snake.
Would they do that in a context to use as a quality mark? (like Georg Jensen, who stopped using the official hallmark 3-towers in order to make The Georg Jensen trademark the mark of quality)

[AG2012]

The question by Hose_dk is very interesting. Some of important silversmiths must have been privileged not to use their registered marks. On the other hand, one cannot eliminate inconsistent enforcement of legislation.
This is the quote from my correspondence with Mario Buccellati regarding an engraved box in “Il Laghetto” technique made by his grandfather Mario.

Unfortunately, sometimes my grandfather forgot to put the trade mark on silver and gold jewelry.

(The trademark is 15 MI).
Someone familiar with the process of hallmarking, taxation etc. in Italy might help. This is not what one can find in books, but based on personal communication with mutually trusted silversmiths. Does he go to the assay office or the shop is attended by the assayer who has the punch? Is the tax paid on exactly every piece by weight or approximate value is charged? As far as I know, the process of taxation and hallmarking is different in different countries and more or less it`s trade secret. The thruth will be disclosed only to close friends.
Regards

[amena]

Hi AG2012,
with the legislation of 1934, in Italy it was the silversmith who put both the purity mark (800, for example) and the registered mark assigned to him, with whom he took responsibility. There was no fee for this, there was only one annual registration fee. The punches with the mark 800 was, and are still available for sale and anyone can buy them in stores for goldsmiths without having to submit any certification.
However the items shown by Hose_dk are prior to this legislation. At that time no mark was compulsory, neither of the fineness nor of the manufacturer.
Regards
Amena