Help with hallmark identification - cup

[SVK]

Hi,

I have stumbled across "18th century" silver cup with P 89 hallmark.
This article gave me some more information:
http://www.silvercollection.it/ASCASORF ... IEING.html

Cup has two more hallmarks which I can't identify and would appreciate your help in doing so.

Image #1


Image #2


I would like to purchase this item but I'm complete amateur and would like to first ask someone who knows something about the silver before I waste money and time.

Please can you identify round hallmark on Image #1 and Hallmark on Image #2 ?
What would be a likelihood that this item isn't genuine(I know that without having the item it's impossible to say - I'm more interested in information as to if this "P89" hallmark is forged often or not) ?

Thank you very much for your help

ps:hopefuly I didn't brake any rules posting 2 pics in 1 picture section (2 picture section requires 2 photos - hallmark+full item)

[Hose_dk]

I have no idea what so ever.
But following your link to The forgotten ...... I can assure you that this is a copy. The Paris mark would be very rare, and I am sure that seller will request an amount making it worth copying.
But as I began I have no idea, this is only my common cense.

[SVK]

I have no idea what so ever.
But following your link to The forgotten ...... I can assure you that this is a copy. The Paris mark would be very rare, and I am sure that seller will request an amount making it worth copying.
But as I began I have no idea, this is only my common cense.

Many thanks for your reply.

That is my gut feeling as well. 5 years is pretty short time so I would guess it would be rare to find something like this.

Seller wants money transfer to bank account.Thats a yellow flag for me.

Thank you again for your help

[SVK]

I have no idea what so ever.
But following your link to The forgotten ...... I can assure you that this is a copy. The Paris mark would be very rare, and I am sure that seller will request an amount making it worth copying.
But as I began I have no idea, this is only my common cense.

Price isnt high. I would say it's lower than other 18 century cups I have seen - with higher weight than others.

That is confusing for me :(

[AG2012]

Hi,
I agree with Hose_dk.
The ``P`` charge mark has been discussed here, again 1789 without discharge mark, but better maker`s mark.
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36021
Discharge mark is missing. The mark on the left is a mystery, does not look like maker`s mark and obliterated with a circular depression, whatever it is.
In a word, very spurious and cannot be attributed to Paris 1789.
Best wishes

[SVK]

Hi,
I agree with Hose_dk.
The ``P`` charge mark has been discussed here, again 1789 without discharge mark, but better maker`s mark.
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36021
Discharge mark is missing. The mark on the left is a mystery, does not look like maker`s mark and obliterated with a circular depression, whatever it is.
In a word, very spurious and cannot be attributed to Paris 1789.
Best wishes

Many thanks for your help.

I guess I will have to pass this one :(

[Hose_dk]

Seller wants money transfer to bank account.Thats a yellow flag for me.

I guess its an e-bay seller, his history can help. Recently I wanted to bye a coin - reasonable priced, seller had in the 40ties positive. Looking at his feedback I saw that several had also more than one valuation so - more than 40ties positive sales.
Still the first few positive purchased was from buyers with a limited number of feedbacks - At the end I decided not to take the chance.

I case where positive feedback is from people with 4-diget feedback - I trust.

[SVK]

Seller wants money transfer to bank account.Thats a yellow flag for me.

I guess its an e-bay seller, his history can help. Recently I wanted to bye a coin - reasonable priced, seller had in the 40ties positive. Looking at his feedback I saw that several had also more than one valuation so - more than 40ties positive sales.
Still the first few positive purchased was from buyers with a limited number of feedbacks - At the end I decided not to take the chance.

I case where positive feedback is from people with 4-diget feedback - I trust.

It's not a e-bay seller. This is directly from a shop in France.
He is a "Member du Syndicate national des Antiquaires"

The fact that he is a member of the syndicate made me think to buy it.
Unfortunately I'm in no position to say if the piece is real or not and can only rely on the info given to me by people who have more experience.

Off course if somebody tells me to jump out of the window I would not do it :)

[SVK]

Sent him an e-mail asking to help me identify them 2 hallmarks.
Let's see what will be his reply.

[anikopol]

Hello,

Pic 1, left to right :
Hard to read, but seems to be A in a circle : Paris, 1789-92
… with a crown and to point : silversmith mark, but definitely unreadable
P topped with 89 an a crown : dating letter of Paris, 1789-92
Pic 2 :
Leave of a grapewine : “decharge” for Paris, 1789-92

Are these marks authentic ? Hard to be 100% sure with no pic of the piece (to see if the maneer is consistant with the era is it supposed to be conceived) and without looking at marks with a magnifier.
Good points:
- all the marks that should be there are present, and at the right place (decharge mark is not supposed to be Under the tumbler for ex)
- they are not obviously false
Bad points :
- False Paris marks of the 1780s does exist

[AG2012]

Hi,
Very interesting set of marks, indeed.
This is another Paris 1789 beaker with the same marks.
The circular mark (on the left side in the beaker you posted) was supposed to be Kalendin Poinçon de charge, used only for 3 months in 1789 (checkered background).
(Rosenberg)

Another observation; solder line at the base has too many flaws (red arrows), being spurious of transposed marks. A skilled silversmith would not do that.
In conclusion, essential marks are missing, there are unidentified marks, poorly executed solder line.
Again, this is my opinion.
Best wishes

[SVK]

Hello,

Pic 1, left to right :
Hard to read, but seems to be A in a circle : Paris, 1789-92
… with a crown and to point : silversmith mark, but definitely unreadable
P topped with 89 an a crown : dating letter of Paris, 1789-92
Pic 2 :
Leave of a grapewine : “decharge” for Paris, 1789-92

Are these marks authentic ? Hard to be 100% sure with no pic of the piece (to see if the maneer is consistant with the era is it supposed to be conceived) and without looking at marks with a magnifier.
Good points:
- all the marks that should be there are present, and at the right place (decharge mark is not supposed to be Under the tumbler for ex)
- they are not obviously false
Bad points :
- False Paris marks of the 1780s does exist

Great post :)

I see where you are coming from.

[SVK]

@ AG2012

I do really appreciate your effort (and anyone else).
Thank you very much for your help.

I take it you would pass on on this piece.?

[AG2012]

Hi,

I take it you would pass on on this piece.?

Not an easy question; the answer depends on your attitude and the price.
I never buy spurious items because if I acquired them I do not enjoy them, but always think of their flaws instead of being happy (unless they are bought at scrap value for research purposes). Even after years, when suffering insomnia I examine them again and again, but it is my neurosis of some kind and probably not a good advice how to collect silver. On the other hand, I recall what an author wrote in regard of antique china:
``Buy what you really like``
``Enthusiasm is not a method of judgment``
I can add: ``Do not buy spurious items``
``Do not trust sellers`` (even famous auction houses make mistakes, and you may have noticed they almost never show marks in their catalogues)
Best wishes