Possibly Russian Tea Caddy - Help Required Please

[WildPen]

Hello everyone,
This is my first query to this forum so I hope I have set up my question correctly and the photos show as they should (I've never posted on a message board before so this is all new to me!). I am hoping someone may be able to help me identify the origin of a silver tea caddy I have recently acquired. It was described as Russian but I have an open mind on that. Parts of the mark look in a Russian format but the first part which I would expect to denote region or town, etc. I cannot trace. I have gone through a copy of Tardy's silver marks and cannot find this mark. I also can't find a Russian silversmith, or assayer with those initials from looking through this site. It may well not be Russian but this seemed the most suitable topic place to post my query, sorry if it is not.

I hope someone will recognise it or possibly help guide me to other resources to look elsewhere.
Thank you,
Penny

[AG2012]

Hi,
Welcome to the forum
Unfortunately, this is not Russian tea caddy or better to say ``sugar box``.
Imperial Russian marks are faked.
But it`s nice Continental Zuckerdose in German.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

I agree with AG2012. Sorry to say but there are no books regarding fake marks.

[WildPen]

Hello AG2012 and Qrt.S,
Thank you both so much for the quick reply. I am not surprised it's not Russian but it is nice to get a more experienced view. I wonder if there are any signs which might point to a likely source; do some countries tend to fake Russian marks more than another, or make sugar boxes in this style or could it be from anywhere in your opinion? If anyone else should have any thoughts then also of course I should be very grateful. Thank you again for your help.
Penny

[AG2012]

Hi,

I wonder if there are any signs which might point to a likely source

I think genuine marks were over struck with faked Russian marks and ``all-seeing- eye``
``OMG,it`s Masonic!``
The craftsmanship does not match European made sugar boxes (soldering, chased and embossed decor, knob, silver gauge, etc). Compare with many examples if you search for silver sugar box or in German silber zuckerdose.
In a word, I do not think it was made in Europe.

do some countries tend to fake Russian marks more than another

Middle and Far East, India, Eastern Europe.
Faked Russian silver has flooded the market, as well as ``judaica`` (spice towers, etrog boxes, thora pointers)
It really takes years of studying marks and ``how it`s made``.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi -
sugar boxes of all kinds with Russian fake marks are mostly made in Poland. Always lavishly decorated.




Goldstein

[AG2012]

Hi,
I think they are not capable of making new boxes of the overall appearance and craftsmanship (included inserted key locks) in two examples above.It`s much easier to strike faked marks and ruin genuine silver.
If I`m wrong faking has gone too far; these boxes can match German or Austrian Zuckerdosen of mid to late 19th century. Do they have factories or what?

[Goldstein]

Hi -
in the beginning they took some available Austrian/Hungarian boxes and faked old German boxes - mostly Berlin. Later after the saturation of the "market" and after consumption of existing stocks they started with Judaika (Etrog, etc.) and Russian Sugar -and Moneyboxes. Newly made in small "kitchen workshops".Since the buyers are getting more and more less critical is the embodiment accordingly simple. Here in the forum one can observe this development every day. What comes next?

Goldstein

[WildPen]

Hi everyone, thank you so much for all your thoughts. I think this is a relatively old box. It has a braised seam at the back so not cast. The fancy flower thing on top is cast but is attached via a bolt through the lid with a square nut inside. I attach some other photos which show. It is quite heavy at 490g also but I agree the engraved detail is a bit primitive. Does this help further? Thanks again, Penny

[WildPen]

Sorry, meant "brazed" seam!

[AG2012]

Hi,
Those boxes were never cast, except for finials, legs. They were raised on stake with the hammer (antique) or machine stamped walls and then assembled, soldered. Solder line should not be seen, it was well hidden after polishing and buffing. Screw bolts were often taken care of in spite of being inside (e.g. half ball bolts). Hinges were well executed, cylinders on both sides (body and cover lid) being in perfect alignment. And most of them, not only Russian, were marked on body, lid, finials and sometimes legs.
In regard of your box, it`s difficult to tell the age because patina develops depending on the exposure to elements and can be artificial, too. As I said before, it was most likely made elsewhere outside Europe.
Regards

[WildPen]

Thank you AG2012, your help is very much appreciated!