Please help with Moscow maker ..

[claretjugs]

recently bought a russian claret jug : assay master Lev Fedorovich Oleks - Moscow 1894 ( only active 6 years )
makers mark HB ?
thx for looking and help in advance !

[claretjugs]

after hours and hours of research i found out a few options .....Geza von Habsburg writes in his books about the maker HB .. it is an unknown Faberge workmaster ... some people here in the forum say it is Nikolai Vladimirov , Moscow 1894-96 .
so far so good .. one thing is for sure : there is no whatsoever Faberge mark on the item , but after collecting silver - especially claret jugs - for more then 25 years i can say : this is faberge quality ! i will upload some more details .. anyway : anyone here who is interested to discuss this topic ?.. help is much appreciated !

[Goldstein]

Hi claretjugs -

[quote="claretjugs"]
.... but after collecting silver - especially claret jugs - for more then 25 years i can say : this is faberge quality !
With all respect - how many authentic Fabergé objects you have handled, inspected and compared? To call this Fabergé quality is close to an offence!
I do not want to discuss the shown "dubious" marks - only so much: claret jugs were widespread around the turn of the century in the countries of Europe, especially in Germany, Austria - Hungary, etc. - just to name a few. After the use more and more rarely took place, they stained/dusted in the cupboards and were offered for sale on the flea markets or antique shops. These cheaply bought claret jugs - which were often of remarkable quality - then appeared among other things as "Russian" objects with "Russian phantasy marks." Russian silver has been stamped according to strict and well-defined rules - even the locations where to stamp was prescribed!There is nothing to be seen in the piece shown !
As an example, I add one of the many average claret jugs (a pair), which were formerly available in stores (flea markets, antique shops). The quality is significantly better than the one shown. Please pay attention to the stamp, which could easily be removed to make a "Russian" object.




Regards
Goldstein

[claretjugs]

i see... maybe i should tell you that i have the largest claret jug collection on this planet ... i cant name my website ( but just go for claret jugs and collection ... you will,find it )

concerning your answer : the russian jug i showed has a wonderfully handmade mounting ... finely engraved etc

the one you showed have been made in Berlin 1881/ 82 and i have about 4 of them and the mounting is machine made ! or pressed !

i would expect more seriousness of someone like you !

[AG2012]

Hi,
These claret jugs were in Faberge shop in Moscow in 1893.
So, there was an addition to the assortment by unknown subcontractor a couple of months later? Not very likely.
Claims by authors affiliated to auction houses should be taken with a grain of salt. Fabergé employed workshops as subsidiary suppliers and this fact is being mishandled; whatever lucrative item is simply attributed to ``unknown Faberge subcontractor``.
Besides, Irina Bogatskaia, Ulla Tillander and Elena Gagarina (Curator of Moscow Kremlin Museums) have collected a comprehensive list of Faberge subcontractors and workshops.
All said, whether it`s genuine Russian claret jug is another issue, but it has nothing in common with Faberge, his subcontractors and ``unknown`` masters.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

Interesting case but for the records and in order to avoid misunderstandings. Lev Fyodorovich Oleks working periods were
Moscow 1899-1904
Kiev 1905-1914
Moscow 1915-1917
It is a bit more than 6 years
I don't think the jug in question is made in Fabergé's factory if there is no "Fabergé" mark on it etc.... The mark HB. (Note the dot!) in connection with Fabergé's mark belongs to a to name unknown master. No dot after HB on this piece!
Anyway, the maker's mark HB in connection with a Fabergé mark was earlier assumed to belong to Nikolay Valdimirov 1894-1896 in Moscow but he never worked with Fabergé. It could be him. However, one of Fabergé's workmaster was in fact Nikolay Gavrilovich Vladimirov born 1870. He became master in 1884. Some sources claim that he worked with Fabergé 1898-1918 in St. Petersburg and Odessa. But the assay marks are Moscow's, so it is hardly him either. Gavrilov's mark is not known but assumed to have been HB or HГB but...? Gavrilov died in 1937.

I would like to know are there any additional marks on the handle and the spout or are the only marks showed on the lid and on the body? Every detachable part should carry marks according to the Russian rules. Also. I would like to see more closeups of the silver parts.
Thank you in advance

Mind my saying but having this planet's largest collection is not the same as knowing the Russian marking system etc.. I have a very large collection of silver books, not the biggest on the planet but, anyway, it does not make me an expert on claret jugs...:-)))))
I would like to add to the list of Fabergé experts also Christel Ludewig McCanless and Will Lowes.

[olga_kehl]

Dear claretjugs, could you make another photo of the maker's mark (these two Cyrillic letters). Actually, I'm not sure what are they exactly, and can't find the maker in the book (M.M. Postnykova-Loseva "Gold and silver craft in 15-20 centuries, the territory of the USSR").

[claretjugs]

[quote="AG2012"]

thx a lot .. i have seen your posted catalogue .. a great addition to this site !! i totally agree if there is no Faberge mark it is not Faberge .. i was just confused about this HB together with the faberge mark in Geza v Habsburgs book !!
will post more details later today ! thx a lot again.

[claretjugs]

[quote="Qrt.S"]

thx a lot for your comment .. i said this about claret jugs and large collection because i was not that keen on Goldsteins comment !
and the reason i am asking experts on russian silver here is that i am not an expert on russian silver but on claret jugs ;-)

[claretjugs]

Dear claretjugs, could you make another photo of the maker's mark (these two Cyrillic letters). Actually, I'm not sure what are they exactly, and can't find the maker in the book (M.M. Postnykova-Loseva "Gold and silver craft in 15-20 centuries, the territory of the USSR").

will add more images later on .. thx a lot for your help !!

[claretjugs]

[quote="Qrt.S"]

Lev Fedorovich Oleks was an assay master active in Moscow in the late nineteenth century. Though he was active for only six years (1890-1896), he nevertheless produced a wide range of fine silverware items, such as cigarette boxes, saltcellars, baskets and ceremonial oil lamps. As assay master, he was responsible for testing and marking items of silverware produced in Moscow. ...is this wrong ??

[olga_kehl]

Oleks really was assay master that years

[olga_kehl]

And on the last photo is visible part of Russian engraving "25th April .... XX ...". Could you please make a photo of these letters? It could be interesting for story of the jug.

[claretjugs]

[claretjugs]

[quote="olga_kehl"]
dear Olga ..thx a lot for your help !!!!!!

[Qrt.S]

@olga_kehl
Please don't tell me when Oleks assayed. He did it exactly those years I stated. The assaying years regarding Oleks mentioned in Postnikova are incorrect as many other things too in this book. It is irrespective of its partly insufficient and sometimes even incorrect information the best book regarding Russian silver available on the market. You will not either find this HB i Postnikova for the simple reason that there are a lot of Russian masters and their marks currently still unknown. HB is one of them, maybe he will be identified some sunny day in the future. It is as well essential to know how the Russian system worked before starting to argue. I don't think anybody has! Please read this:

http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia.html


@claretjugs
Oleks was active as I stated earlier, see my answer above. Nonetheless, Oleks was an assayer only (an official) and punching the official assaying mark ЛО only indicates that he during his working periods guarantees that the silver fineness marked with his mark is legal and nothing else. It means not less than 84 zolotniki (875/1000). Oleks as an assayer hasn't made a single object. This means that what you stated is partly wrong! Correct me if I am wrong but I have never seen Oleks' maker's mark. Please you too read the link above.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry a minor typo. The sentence: "I don't think anybody has!" relates to the maker's mark of Oleks mentioned in my answer to claretjugs, mea culpa!

[olga_kehl]

You will not either find this HB i Postnikova for the simple reason that there are a lot of Russian masters and their marks currently still unknown.

Ok, sure, thanx.

[claretjugs]

[quote="Qrt.S"]@olga_kehl
so the fact are : jug has been assayed in Moscow 1894 by Oleks .. and we know nothing about the maker and thats it ?! am i right ?

[Qrt.S]

Exactly, you are right. That is the case..........as for present!