Vodka cup with art nouveau influence

[silvervault]

Hi to all,
I am trying to identify the maker of tis small cup, which I presume to be a vodka cup. It's decorated with a art nouveau-style motif of red clover.
The engraved dedication is also a total mystery to me, so if anyone could translate it?
It weighs about 55gr., it has 4 marks in total:
On the side, near the upper rim:
- first kokoshnik with assayer, I think Lebedkin?
- rectangular makers mark 'M.T.'
On the center of the bottom:
- same marks, but now a small round kokoshnik.

Thank you all.

[Goldstein]

Hi silvervault -
the shown kokoschnik mark was in use in the years 1896-1908.
Town is Moscow, assayed by Iwan Lebedkin
Maker is probably Tarasov, Michail J., working from 1905-1914
Your mark is a little different from the known marks (dots between M and T) but in his rather short working period he changed his mark 5 times - so it could be him. Furthermore is he known for the quality of his objects - as in your case.
The dedication text is something military - our Russian speaking members will translate.
A little cleaning and polishing will bring this beauty to shine!




Regards
Goldstein

source: PL p. 221

[AG2012]

Hi,
``To our fearless young commander``
1.1.1943.
``Younger`` may refer to his age or his rank, cannot tell for sure.
People do not like personalized, engraved silver but they are wrong. Either family crests or gifts like this.
A small piece of history.
Regards

[olga_kehl]

Hi, silvervault

I see just "Бесстрашному младшему командиру" ("To the brave junior commander"), first three words. Could you please make additional photo?

[Qrt.S]

For the records and to avoid a common misunderstanding. The left looking kokoshnik like in the picture was implemented 1.1.1899 not 1896. The assay charter presenting the new kokshnik mark was enforced July 1 1896 that was all and nothing else. I have told this story before, but to make it short this is how it continued. The exact date is not known but during the latter part of 1898 this new kokoshnik was distributed from the mint office but only in Moscow and St Petersburg. Immediately it became clear that the mark did not follow the set legal requirements. It had the fineness expressed in too small figures. Therefore a new kokoshnik mark like the one shown here with big fineness figures was launched 1.1.1899 and the mark with small figures abandoned. The head with the kokshnik occurs in two different shapes. It is a long an rather complicated story of what all happened before the launch of the new kokshnik assaying mark. If necessary I can show pictures of the 1898 kokoshnik with small figures and the assayers initials being ИЛ, ЯЛ or AA. Here you can read some about it except for that when the text was published it was not yet known that this small figures kokshik also existed with the initials AA.
http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_kokoshnik_01.html

[Goldstein]

Hi -
It's nice to be able to apply your book knowledge, but topic is here only about the 1905-14 period, and it's covered by that mark, no matter when it was actually introduced or when it was actually used the first time. There are several opinions in specialist circles which can be exactly chronological dated back to the year 1896. Stick to your outdated books - tolerating different opinions are not your thing.

The exact date is not known

....

Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein,
Thank you, nice and polite as always. What if you read the assay charter and other documents concerning the implementation of this mark. Probably this documentation is out of your reach. Anyway, what I meant with the "exact date" was day and month of 1898 when the incorrect mark was released not the year. If you want to date an object the year matters. The left looking legal koksnik was used 1.1.1899-25.3.1908. The illegal with small figures only during the latter part of 1898. And don't start nagging again!

here only about the 1905-14 period, and it's covered by that mark

I would like to see an object with a left looking kokoshnik made after 1908. Maybe you have one in your famous collection? Please show it.

By the way, books are outdated when new information has been found. In this case there is no new information available or maybe you have found something new?

[Goldstein]

Hi -
in your own words:

The assay charter presenting the new kokshnik mark was enforced July 1 1896 that was all and nothing else.

All said!
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

Yes, the CHARTER not the mark! Buy a magnifying glass!

[Goldstein]

Hi -
what was first - the charter or the mark? Another example: what was first - the hen or the egg? I am sure you know the answer.

If you want to provide something useful try to translate the dedication text of the stopka - inclusively the abbreviation for the military unit.

Goldstein

[silvervault]

I'll post some better pics of the engraving tomorrow, so it can be translated entirely, if Olga would be so kind :-) Already many thanks to you all!!!

[AG2012]

Hello again,
Curiously, the place is obviously Irkutsk in Siberia. There was no front-line there during WW II. There is a memorial dedicated to Irkutsk natives honored as “Heroes of the Soviet Union” . On the other hand, there must have been a permanent military unit in Irkutsk at the time.
Can we see full engraving, please.Thank you.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein
Don't you really know which one comes first, the assay charter or the mark!?
FYI!
The assay charter or the ukaz is the law. In it is stipulated what's gonna happen and when, i.e. what rules to apply, punches and when implemented. Now you know which one comes first....I hope.

About the engraving and translation. Olga already gave you the first part: "To the fearless junior commander" However a minor problem. There is no such rank in the Soviet Army. "Командир" is a general expression meaning "leader" more or less.
The rest От Б. Ч. 1025 is partly an abbreviation of "От Боевая Часть 1025 (From Warhead 1025). And finally Г. ИРКУТСК (Town Irkutsk).

I hope this will satisfy you. A thank you will do!

[Goldstein]

Hi -

The exact date is not known but during the latter part of 1898 this new kokoshnik was distributed from the mint office but only in Moscow and St Petersburg.

The exact date is not known ....but during the latter part of 1898 .....this new kokoshnik was distributed....Very confusing1
Latter part of 1898 is 4 month. In this time only 3 assay offices (ИЛ, ЯЛ, АА ) had the new stamps (maybe more - who knows?) many thousands of objects were marked in this short time. In my collection are many of them. When I have about 20 or 30 (have not the time to count them) you can immagine how that is statistically significant for the total production - in only 4 month out of 3 assay offices. Not realistic! Something does not fit!
Some of the new marks - maybe others exist from other towns - and nobody cares....


Goldstein

[Dad]

.......
About the engraving and translation. Olga already gave you the first part: "To the fearless junior commander" However a minor problem. There is no such rank in the Soviet Army. "Командир" is a general expression meaning "leader" more or less.
.......

Problem isn't.

The Term of "the military Officer" (Офицер) is absent in Red Army before 1943, like "heritage of a tsarism".
Was used the term : "Commander" (Командир). There was three kinds of "Сommanders": Junior, Middle and Senior.
"Junior commanders" are the sergeants and petty officers (in a number of states - unter-officers, subofficers)

"Junior commanders" are commanders of primary divisions (platoons and less), assistants to commanders of platoons and petty officers In 1924 - 40 in the USSR.

[Qrt.S]

I don't know what say anymore....one doesn't seem to or want to understand or is illiterate. Probably because one doesn't bother to read the documentation basing ones assumptions on oral rumors originated from nothing. I will try one more time to explain what is known. However, Goldstein is right in one thing i.e. "It is a a mess!".

When the ukaz of 1896 was enforced July 1. 1896, it caused an enormous confusion because it was badly prepared. The Mint Office in St Petersburg had nothing whatsoever ready, no punches, no instructions, nothing. In a hurry they started to produce punches and distribute to the assay stalls the new instructions. They faced heavy resistance from the stalls. The Mint office received applications requesting that the old punches could be used as earlier. It was denied. The mint office, however, distribute the new punches in 1898 and demanded the assay stalls to use them. It became a complete muddle.

Only three assayers punches has been found. Those are ИЛ (Ivan Lebedkin in Moscow) ЯА (Jakov Lyapunov in St Petersburg and АА (Anatoly Artsibaschev in Moscow). There can be more but they are not yet found! In late 1898 it suddenly became clear that the new hallmark was imperfect and therefore illegal. A new disturbance! Immediately new punches where made in the Mint office fulfilling the legal requirements. The new hallmarks, now with big figures superseded the old one that was declared illegal as from 1.1.1899. The mess was complete, the rules was not obeyed, duty not paid etc.etc. Therefore the Ministry of Finance ordered In August 10. 1905 that the left looking kokshnik shall be exchange to a new hallmark. On June 8. 1906 the Mint Councillor, head medallier of the St Petersburg Mint A. Grilikhes started to produce the new hallmark, a right looking kokshnik. On March 15.1908 the introduction documents were signed and as from August 23. 1908 the new law was to be observed. The right looking kokshnik had been born!

Goldstein!
The latter part of a year is 6 months not 4! The marks you show are the same I mentioned above. However, you claim

When I have about 20 or 30

What if you take some time and show at least one or two objects from you collection carrying a left looking kokshnik with small fineness figures and initials not belonging to any any of the three assayers mentioned above . It is not impossible that you might have one. That would interest me very much to see one. Please try to find it and show it. There is nothing new with the marks you showed in you last input; Lebedkin and Lyapunov are both known.

Summa summarum:
All objects with a left looking kokshnik hallmark with small figures can be dated to the time span July 1. - December 31. 1898. An object with a similar kokshnik but with big figures can not have been hallmarked before January 1. 1899.

I did my best to make myself clear without writing a whole novel. It is, anyway, a long and messy story.

[Qrt.S]

@Dad,
Now I'm confused by Dad's statement regarding "commander". You write

"Junior commanders" are the sergeants and petty officers

that would be e.g. мла́дший сержа́нт a rank (junior sergeant) Why don't you call him junior sergeant instead of "commander", not a rank but seems to be a common expression for many ranks as you state????

However, this is a Soviet rank too мла́дший лейтена́нт but not a sergeant or petty officer but a junior lieutenant. Is he a "junior commander too"? Quite a difference between a sergeant and lieutenant in rank order, ----?
A bit out of topic but just wondering???

[Dad]

@Dad,
Now I'm confused by Dad's statement regarding "commander". You write

"Junior commanders" are the sergeants and petty officers

that would be e.g. мла́дший сержа́нт a rank (junior sergeant) Why don't you call him junior sergeant instead of "commander", not a rank but seems to be a common expression for many ranks as you state????

However, this is a Soviet rank too мла́дший лейтена́нт but not a sergeant or petty officer but a junior lieutenant. Is he a "junior commander too"? Quite a difference between a sergeant and lieutenant in rank order, ----?
A bit out of topic but just wondering???

It is very difficult to explain. May be Wikipedia?))

The junior commander is not a military rank (like the sergeant or the lieutenant). The junior commander is the general name of unter-officers (sergeants, foremen, petty officers etc.)

All military personnel on the official position was divided into four groups: the younger command and commanding structure; the average command and commanding structure; the senior command and commanding structure; the highest command and commanding structure by "The Order from RVS USSR No. 807" of June 20, 1924 (Приказ РВС СССР № 807 от 20 июня 1924). This division corresponds to modern division into sergeants, junior officers, the senior officers and the highest officers (generals).

[Goldstein]

Hi -
Even the simplest terms are misleading.
In my culture, the year consists of 4 seasons - spring, summer, autumn and winter. Computational: 1 year = 12 months. 12 months divided by 4 = 3 months. The last part of the year = 3 months.

Next question: why were only the cities of Moscow and St. Petersburg supplied with the new stamps? What happened to the other big cities, which also had a large silver production? For example Odessa, Kiev, Riga? What stamps were used there? The old? Maybe a production stop? This can not be so! If you know the Russian administrative chaos and you know the many detours that have been going on for centuries, there is nothing closer to believing that the "old" stamps were used in all cities except Moscow and St. Petersburg. It was only when the second attempt of the new stamps had succeeded that they were introduced nationwide. Therefore, in my opinion, the term 1899-1908 is only partly correct and I personally use 1896-1908 - which corresponds more to the facts. This is, of course, a sacrilege for those who are stubborn sticking to the contradictory files.
A small remark: I am neither illiterate nor stupid - but try to question things and do not believe everything I read! And I have the privilege that I have a lot of real-life workpieces from these years before my eyes - with the corresponding indications - the original stamps. Believe me - that really makes many things more understandable!
Perhaps it is worth taking this thought once and for all - without prejudice and a "I know all" attitude.

Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

Nobody has mentioned "the last part" but the latter part. If a year is split in two you have the first part and the latter part, each being 6 months, elementary English.

Unfortunately I don't know why only Moscow and St Petersburg punched with the illegal kokoshnik. Anyway, the hallmarks used 1882-1898 where three of the kind, the dvoinik, the troinik and the chetvernik. The two last ones contained the assaying year. Has anybody seen those marks carrying a year like 1899, 1900, 1901....1908 ? I haven't and I would be interested in seeing at least one such hallmark. Show me one Goldstein! When I see it, I immediately admit being wrong. And please do not try to tell that old hallmarks with years in the past were used after 1899.To insist that abandoned hallmarks were used is based on nothing but "feelings".