Chamber stick from Venice with a wick, unknown maker

[zilverik]

Hi,

This is a nice chamber stick. Feels good in the hand. Pretty heave for the seize. It weights 253 grams. Diameter: 8 cm; length (including handle): 11,7 cm; height: 9,3 cm.
Under the body I see the town mark of Venice with the lion (18e or early 19e century) and a mark that looks like “M symbol G” in an unregular frame with rounded corners. Under the handle I see several marks, mostly rubbed, one is readable. The readable one looks like “I, then a six point star with a point above and then an H or M”. The initials are also in an unregular frame with rounded corners.
Who could be the maker? Anyone has an idea?

Zilverik

[AG2012]

Hi,
Is it chamberstick or kettle stand burner ?
Excuse me, just asking.
Regards

[zilverik]

Hi,

It is an unusual chamber stick indeed. Made for oil probably. Or a sort of "wax jack". Not for a standard candlestick. It is complete.

Regards,

Zilverik

[amena]

Sorry if I put a bug in your ear, but " pretty heavy for the size " is not really a good visiting card for a piece of the eighteenth century.
Look carefully inside and outside to see the signs of working and age.
I tell you that because I've seen in the past a couple of wax jack very very similar to yours, pretty heavy, that were manufactured at the beginning of the twentieth century, but they had the San Marco's lion's mark. At that date it was not forbidden to use marks similar to the hallmark of Venetian Mint.
None of the other two marks is present in known repertoires, but this is often the case even for authentic pieces.
Good luck
Amena

[zilverik]

Hi Anema,

I have a (for me authentic) chamber stick similar like this one, but in this case the without legs. Also Venice (head of St. Marco lion). For the size also heavy. High 4,5 cm, length 13 cm, diameter 6 cm, weight 160 gram. Maker ZG = Zuanne Gaggioli (1701...) or Zuanne Grandson (1704-1712) or Zuanne Guarinoni (1732-1771). See photo's. First photo is the chamber stick. The marks are placed under the bottom. The last photo (swan on the handle) is a later French control mark.
I respect your opinion. You doubt the authenticity of both pieces? If so, I would like to know: on what grounds?

Regards,

Zilverik

[amena]

Hi Zilverik
I would like to point out that I have never said that your wax jack is false, I just wanted to warn you because I have seen several of these objects faked, and I'm pretty sure that they were fake, as the same salesman admitted it, in some case.
It's hard to judge from a photo, and I'm not enough expert in Venetian silverware.
However, if you are interested in an expert's judgment, I am in touch with Piero Pazzi, who is the greatest expert in Venetian Silver.
You can post photos of the inside of the two wax jack and photos a little bit sharper of the marks of the second and I will forward them to Mr. Pazzi.
Best
Amena

[zilverik]

Hi Amena,

Thank you for your respons. I include additional photo's of the two objects. By a closer look inside the bigger one (with the legs) I noticed in the upper part the same mark as the mark under the body. Dark, but it is there. Tried to make a photo of it. The first set of photo's are from the bigger object. The last ones are from the smaller (ZG). Hope to hear from you.

Regards,

Zilverik

Additional for the big one:





Additional for the smaller one (without legs)

[AG2012]

Hi,
Not competent to comment the marks but well informed in regard of``how it`s made``.
The images clearly show it was hammer raised on stake, something very convincing for 18th century silvermithing.
Regards

[zilverik]

Hi,

The makers mark of the bigger one could be the same as the one found for the Venice spoon in the following post:

http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... on#p134352

In that case (following Donaver-Dabbene) the maker is: Zuan Piero Grappiglia (mark number 405).

However, even in that case, the puzzle is not finished. What about the other (makers?)mark on the big one?

And what about the small one? Who could be ZG? ZG is not in Donaver-Dabbene.

Regards,

Zilverik

[amena]

Hi Zilverik
I sent your photos to Mr. Pazzi, but he has not answered me yet.
Zuan Piero Grappiglia is not a maker, but a "sazador" (essayer).
Here you are some marks of Zuan Piero Grappiglia I collected to compare them with yours.



As for other marks, you do not have to wonder if you have not found them in the Donaver Dabbene, there are many that are not listed.
I have collected several and if I succeed in putting them in order, I will post them.
Best
Amena

[zilverik]

Hi Amena,

Thank you for the photo's. Although not 100% sure Zuan Piero Grappiglia's assayers mark looks very much alike the mark on the bigger chamber stick. Now that that mark is the essayers mark, the other mark is the makers mark. The makers mark is a capital I, then a sixpoint star under a dot and then a letter that looks like a capital R, U, H, K, B or even a X. Not in Donaver Dabbene as far as I can see.

Regards,

Zilverik

[zilverik]

Hi Amena,

I found a photo and description of the twin brother of the bigger one. It is on page 254 in: Alain Gruber, Gebrauchssilber des 16. bis 19. Jahrhunderts, Fribourg, 1982. There is stated that the "Wachsschnurhalter" = bougie box/wax jack) is made in Padua around 1740. The photo in the book shows the same forms from top to bottom (including details of the legs) as the forms of the bigger one. That could mean that I searched in the wrong time period (and the wrong name of the object). I thought originally that the bougie box should be made in the late 18e or early 19e century. We should search in the period around 1740. Unfortunately the twin brother bougie box has also an unknown master (P.G.) and the photo of the master mark is not in the book. So probably we will never know who the master is.

Regards,

Zilverik

[amena]

The shape is peculiar of Venice XVIII century. At that time Padua was part of the Venetian Republic. The name in Italian is "stoppiniera".
Try to search with this name.
Good luck.
Amena

[zilverik]

Thank you!

Zilverik