Judaica - stamps, help needed.

[Dane111]

Hello, I can't recognise the stamps on Russian spice container. Can anybody help me with identification? Many thanks in advance!!! Pic. 4 - Polish (Poland) hallmarks, later. I can't find maker with Cyrillic MH, also have problem with assayer OC - Minsk, Moscow?

[AG2012]

Hi,
Unfortunately, Russian marks are faked.
Very lucrative and vast field of faked ``Russian Judaica`` Nearly 99% are either faked marks or entirely faked objects.
A benevolent advice is to avoid it.
Regards

[Dad]

I think hallmarks are original. M. Harlap. OS - Osip Sosnkowski.

But this item is a construction from parts of an original candlestick and imagination of the immitator.

[madej]

Hallo
I once asked for a very similar besamim. It seems to me that it is too small for a candlestick, a few times I saw the besamim of this form.

http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 62#p145850

[AG2012]

Remember the discussion /too small base for a candlestick.
Many spice towers and ethrog boxes have emerged from Poland lately.
It seems there was a problem with cutting punches for this assayer.

[Goldstein]

Hi Dane111 -

Before you are interested in Russian silver you should at least have a certain minimal knowledge. All the objects you have shown so far do not have anything to do with Russian silver! They are fakes of the worst kind. Please stop posting this rubbish!
As stated already "this freak" has been built from different parts - using an authentic chandelier part with authentic stamps (Warsaw under Russian rule). This is called "cannibalism falsification".
Here are the original marks:



Regards
Goldstein

[niceguy1]

Many spice towers and ethrog boxes have emerged from Poland lately.

There you have your answer..

[Dane111]

Thanks to everybody for discussion. It becomes really interesting. Some people have strange agression for me, but not my problem...

Check this link, please: http://www.imj.org.il/en/collections/253098
Sorry, I don't follow opinion that spice tower in Jerusalem Museum is made of candle sticks. I do believe my can be a copy, but it becomes less and less probably when I make some research. Following item from the Museum - silversmith is M. Harlap, same as @Dad recognised. According to @Goldstein's materials - active 1897-1915. In the Museum it's dated 1895.
Looking on style/finish/techniques - form is exactly same in both examples. The engraved decoration (not perfectly visible on picture in Museum) - same. There are small differences in floral forms, but very similar.

As I can't find anyting on Russian pages, I started looking in Poland:
1. Here you have Mosze Charlap's (as the name should be written in Polish) spice tower datedto 1899-1904, offered by Polish auction house:

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

2. Here is very similar spice container in Polish Museum with good collection of Polish silver, poor quality of picture, I can ask them for detailed pictures and short description:


3. Warsaw City Museum has the Hannukah Lamp by M. Charlap dated 1892, inventory number: MHW 22127/1-2. So dates of Charlap's activity by @Goldstein are doubtful.

4. Antique shop in Poland offered spice container by M. Charlap, dated 1896:

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

5. http://judaika.polin.pl/dmuseion/docmet ... w_nav=true From the database of the Polish Jewish Museum in Warsaw, item from Archeological Museum collection. Obvious mistake in city attribution (archeologists...), but properly recognised maker.

6. From same database as above, dated 1888, in Wlodawa Museum: http://judaika.polin.pl/dmuseion/docmet ... w_nav=true

7. Same database, different form, but made by Charlap in 1886: http://judaika.polin.pl/dmuseion/docmet ... w_nav=true

8. Same database, similar form, dated 1886-1908: http://judaika.polin.pl/dmuseion/docmet ... w_nav=true

9. Same database: http://judaika.polin.pl/dmuseion/docmet ... w_nav=true

To conclude - I DO NOT BELIEVE so many items in museums (antique shops/auction houses is a different story, most of them don't care about selling fakes) by same maker are fakes or composits made of cadlesticks.

Dates of Charlap's activity varies depending on sources. Sometimes it's mentioned that Charlap worked from 1887, sometimes from early '80 etc. There is number of his works dated 1886, so CHARLAP WAS ACTIVE in 1886 or earlier and date 1895 on my item is ok. As I can believe in Russian sources showing dates of activity of assayer's, for maker's it's not so simple, many mistakes. Like French ebenistes or clockmasters in 18th c. There was a guild, necessary to acchieve master title, but many has different acchieving dates depending on source you check. I do believe it was same in late 19th c. in Poland/Russia. Not everything printed in books is true.

There is almost nothing in Russian language about Charlap (or I can't find), so the best source of knowledge is Poland/Israel. After my research I'm sure it is possible that assayer is Osip Sosnkovskiy, as he worked until 1897 and Charlap made this spice tower in 1895. All correct. Number spice towers similar in from and style (including finish) I found in museums, ensures me that the one I asked about is original. Other stamps are later date, after 1920, used in Poland.

Many thanks to all of you, I would never find out this passionate knowledge without your help.

@Dad - спасибо, ваш пост позволил мне найти все дальнейшие ссылки.

Best regards,
Dane

[Dane111]

MetMuseum has one similar, too: https://metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/239369.
Later, after 1899, but same style.

[madej]

Dane 111
Museum of Gold Art in Kazimierz (Poland)
https://www.mnkd.pl/muzeum-sztuki-zlotniczejThe same form

Click on the image for better quality

[Dane111]

More from Israel:
The Bezalel Narkiss Index of Jewish Art, similar shape, same master - http://cja.huji.ac.il/browser.php?mode=set&id=2132
Three Harlap's spice boxes: Hammersite, auction 11/1/2007, lot 9057, 9056, 9054. 6/26/2007, lot 8325 - Hannukah lamp, Harlap 1892.
Harlap spice box of similar form - Harlap.

[Dane111]

Thanks @Madej. I think I posted a picture of the same one, but from other side. Interior looks very similar. Unfortunately, one I found is not sharp.

Dane 111
Museum of Gold Art in Kazimierz (Poland)
https://www.mnkd.pl/muzeum-sztuki-zlotniczejThe same form

Click on the image for better quality

[madej]

http://cja.huji.ac.il/browser.php?mode= ... maker_name

[madej]

I will go back to my post and post a link to Reiner's objects. We were wondering where the Tsar eagle came from, and here it is on the objects.
http://925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php ... 62#p145850

http://cja.huji.ac.il/browser.php?mode= ... maker_name

[Dane111]

http://cja.huji.ac.il/browser.php?mode= ... maker_name

Great site! Thanks!!! For me it's clearly visible that all them are from one hand. Some elements and decoration are almost same. I think my besamin has not original flag. It's simple shaped, colour is little different to the rest and has no maker's stamp. Charlap usually made waving shaped flags with his stamp.

Best regards,
Dane

[Goldstein]

Hi Dane111 -

A stab in the wasps nest!

Before India and China hijacked the fakemarked, Poland was the Mekka for Russian and Judaica fakes. Now it fell back to number one in Judaica fakes.
I think it is useless to explain details to unknowing, uninterested or unwilling.
Maybe an other approach is more promising:
We all know what happened in Poland from 1939 - 1945 with the Jewish population and their property! After that the Red Army followed....
And now we have the most abundant accumulation of Judaica in the whole world!

Bad is who thinks bad!

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi -

some Sabbat cadlesticks from my collection just to show that the Jewish silversmiths were able to work according to aesthetic criteria!
Compare with the shown objects.
From top to bottom:
Sztern, Malcz, Pogorzelski, Radke, Riedl, Szegman







Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

Hello Goldstein.
So, in museums are ignorant people who unconsciously describe Judaica as original or do they deliberately? Whether in the Polin Museum, one of the largest Judaic museums in the world, are also under-educated appraisers who describe and exhibit objects that you consider to be "falsification canibalism"
I'm not a teacher like you, I'm just learning, but I'm surprised you're going to deny everything, even to institutions like museums and their experts.
Regards

[Goldstein]

Hi madej -

just go to eBay - Russsian silver 84 - and see what you find.
When you visit the Polin Museum next time - just ask them from where all the exhibits come from.

Years ago when in Munich/Germany the new build synagoge was inaugurated I went there in the hope to find some old, authentic judaica from the big jewish community from the east, which I could photographe for my files. I saw only new replicas (no fakes). When I asked for the reason, the answer was: not much authentic material survived. Maybe in Poland everything was different from the rest of Europe, we only do not know it. I am sure you can explain why so many fakes come from Poland and why the museums there are full of antique, authentic judaica.
Here some examples of the many, many offered objects:







Regards
Goldstein

[madej]

Hello Goldstein.
Everything you write about false objects is known to me. I know that the market is flooded with false especially Russian silver and judaic.I know even people who work in Lodz in Poland because there is a center for fals silver.The items you showed above can buy in kilograms for small money (but I do not recognize it), but none of the creators of these false silver never made besamines in the form of which you write falsification canibalism. Do not you think that in Poland above all this form of besamim was common and in other countries less?
I think the easiest way is to go to the Jewish community in Cracow and Katowice and talk to the Rabbi about this besamim. Authenticity does not have to be, and they probably do not know, but they certainly know whether this form of besamim was present as they were children in their homes or with family or friends.
Regards