Confusing hallmarks on a silver wine taster

[papas]

Hello,
I bought in a flea market a silver wine taster. The hallmarks on the side indicates that it comes from Franse and was made around 1800 and have a silver content of 950/1000 (cock hallmark used between 1798 and 1809 for regions outside Paris - Départements).
At the same time I see on the bottom of the taster an A800 hallmark and something else I can't identify.
My question is now, is there a logical explanation because I'm confused.
Any help is welcome. I can post more photos if necessary.

[AG2012]

Hi,
Both marks (A 800 and possibly maker`s mark next to it) are consistent with Belgian marks.
Cannot tell if French marks are genuine.
regards

[amena]

It seems to me to see remains of an old punching.



Or it's just an impression?

[papas]

Hi amena,
Yes I thing the same, that these are remains of an old punching, but I can't make anything of it.

To AG2012
Yes, these are Belgian hallmarks for content and maker used from 1942.

[papas]

That's why I'm confused, because I see French hallmarks from around 1800 and Belgian hallmarks after 1942.
Can we speek here for a forgery or is the tester punched again as proof of being silver although it's punched 800 while is has the French punch for 950?
On the other hand, because I found it in Belgium, the French hallmarks are from the time when Belgium was under French occupation (1794-1815).

[papas]

It seems to me to see remains of an old punching.



Or it's just an impression?

Hi amena,
Yes I thing the same, that these are remains of an old punching, but I can't make anything of it.

[papas]

Hi,
Both marks (A 800 and possibly maker`s mark next to it) are consistent with Belgian marks.
Cannot tell if French marks are genuine.
regards

Yes, these are Belgian hallmarks for content and maker used from 1942.
Best regards

[AG2012]

I suggest to have it tested (electronically,accurate and not aggressive).
Difference of either .950 or .800 may shed some light on French provenance.

[amena]

What I wanted to say is that it is possible that the tastevin is of an earlier age than that determined by legible hallmarks. I do not know what were the uses in France or Belgium, but in Italy, in the past, often the silver items that had hallmarks from abroad, or unknown or no longer legible, they could be punched again with a hallmark, at the owner's request. An example is this Russian ladle of fineness 875/000 which has been punched with a hallmark in use in the kingdom of Sardinia from 1824 to 1872 for objects of fineness of 800/000.



You can also see
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... es#p131569
Something similar may have happened

[JayT]

Hello all
Yes, the marks are confusing because this is a fantasy piece. As noted before on this forum, wine tasters are the mostly frequently faked French silver objects. They are made by the thousands for the tourist trade as picturesque souvenirs, eventually finding their way to the secondary market, as the case here, where the confusion begins.
Was this taster made in France? Yes.
Is it made of silver? Yes. What standard? No way to be certain without testing, except that I think I see a boar’s head mark used after 1838 for small objects to the right of the steer head mark, which would indicate at least 800 standard silver.
When was it produced? Probably 20th C.
How do you know that? There is no concordance between the marks. They are fantasy marks. Specifically, a cockerel mark for 950 standard from the provinces, in use 1798-1809; a guarantee mark from the provinces that should have the number of the department around the outside of the mark, not on either side of the head, like a Paris mark would; a pre-Revolutionary ox head discharge mark used from 1774-1780; a rubbed mark on the bottom of the object (where it doesn’t belong) which purports to be a pre-Revolutionary mark of some kind, either a maker or jurande mark. In short, a hodge-podge of marks. There should be a mark on the handle as well, which I don’t see.
What about the Belgian marks? I defer to the Belgian experts, but would agree that the taster was probably marked when imported to Belgium.
Hope this hopes to clarify regarding the French marks.

[papas]

Hello all
Yes, the marks are confusing because this is a fantasy piece. As noted before on this forum, wine tasters are the mostly frequently faked French silver objects. They are made by the thousands for the tourist trade as picturesque souvenirs, eventually finding their way to the secondary market, as the case here, where the confusion begins.
Was this taster made in France? Yes.
Is it made of silver? Yes. What standard? No way to be certain without testing, except that I think I see a boar’s head mark used after 1838 for small objects to the right of the steer head mark, which would indicate at least 800 standard silver.
When was it produced? Probably 20th C.
How do you know that? There is no concordance between the marks. They are fantasy marks. Specifically, a cockerel mark for 950 standard from the provinces, in use 1798-1809; a guarantee mark from the provinces that should have the number of the department around the outside of the mark, not on either side of the head, like a Paris mark would; a pre-Revolutionary ox head discharge mark used from 1774-1780; a rubbed mark on the bottom of the object (where it doesn’t belong) which purports to be a pre-Revolutionary mark of some kind, either a maker or jurande mark. In short, a hodge-podge of marks. There should be a mark on the handle as well, which I don’t see.
What about the Belgian marks? I defer to the Belgian experts, but would agree that the taster was probably marked when imported to Belgium.
Hope this hopes to clarify regarding the French marks.

Hello JayT,
Thank you for the clarification about the French hallmarks. I'll try to find out more about the Belgian hallmarks.
Best regards

[papas]

What I wanted to say is that it is possible that the tastevin is of an earlier age than that determined by legible hallmarks. I do not know what were the uses in France or Belgium, but in Italy, in the past, often the silver items that had hallmarks from abroad, or unknown or no longer legible, they could be punched again with a hallmark, at the owner's request. An example is this Russian ladle of fineness 875/000 which has been punched with a hallmark in use in the kingdom of Sardinia from 1824 to 1872 for objects of fineness of 800/000.



You can also see
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... es#p131569
Something similar may have happened

Hi amena,
I was thinking that something similar was ongoing here, until I read the JayT's clarification. Thank you anyway.
Best regards

[papas]

Hello all
Yes, the marks are confusing because this is a fantasy piece. As noted before on this forum, wine tasters are the mostly frequently faked French silver objects. They are made by the thousands for the tourist trade as picturesque souvenirs, eventually finding their way to the secondary market, as the case here, where the confusion begins.
Was this taster made in France? Yes.
Is it made of silver? Yes. What standard? No way to be certain without testing, except that I think I see a boar’s head mark used after 1838 for small objects to the right of the steer head mark, which would indicate at least 800 standard silver.
When was it produced? Probably 20th C.
How do you know that? There is no concordance between the marks. They are fantasy marks. Specifically, a cockerel mark for 950 standard from the provinces, in use 1798-1809; a guarantee mark from the provinces that should have the number of the department around the outside of the mark, not on either side of the head, like a Paris mark would; a pre-Revolutionary ox head discharge mark used from 1774-1780; a rubbed mark on the bottom of the object (where it doesn’t belong) which purports to be a pre-Revolutionary mark of some kind, either a maker or jurande mark. In short, a hodge-podge of marks. There should be a mark on the handle as well, which I don’t see.
What about the Belgian marks? I defer to the Belgian experts, but would agree that the taster was probably marked when imported to Belgium.
Hope this hopes to clarify regarding the French marks.

Hello JayT,
After a good look I saw that there is a boar’s head mark to the right of the steer head mark as indicated and a boars's head mark on the handle as well.
Thank you for your help.
Best regards

[JayT]

My pleasure to help.

[Dendriet]

.

Both marks (A 800 and possibly maker`s mark next to it) are consistent with Belgian marks.

What about the Belgian marks? I defer to the Belgian experts, but would agree that the taster was probably marked when imported to Belgium.

Come across this by accident while browsing this site
If you are still interested in these Belgian brands, then let me know, then I will look for it

[Dendriet]

.

Hello JayT, Thank you for the clarification about the French hallmarks. I'll try to find out more about the Belgian hallmarks.

After researching weekend finds, I saw him pass.
Place it for completeness.
Perhaps also for other searchers

[papas]

.

Hello JayT, Thank you for the clarification about the French hallmarks. I'll try to find out more about the Belgian hallmarks.

After researching weekend finds, I saw him pass.
Place it for completeness.
Perhaps also for other searchers




Hi Dendriet,
A big thank you or the given info.
Best regards

[Agman]

I collect early French silver and own dozens of pieces from the 18th century and turn of the 19th century. I am quite certain that these are genuine marks, not fantasy. The patina and color are also good… Everything about it is correct.

What we are looking at is a piece that was repeatedly re-assayed, a phenomenon quite common in Continental silver. It was likely made in Paris, 1775 to 1781, since the bovine head struck near the rim is the discharge mark from those years (and in the correct placement). The rest of the pre-Revolutionary hallmarks were struck on the bottom of the taster, and have been largely obliterated due both to wear and to the later hallmarks struck over them, which would have involved placing the piece on an anvil.

The rooster and facing head date from when the taster was re-assayed under the French Empire of Napoleon I.

Finally, the Belgian hallmarks are from the piece being re-assayed later in Belgium, as has already been noted.

While pre-1789 French hallmarks are often forged, it is extremely difficult to do so for post-1797 marks, which are tiny and full of detail, thus beyond the technical capabilities of the fantasy-makers.

Congratulations on finding this fine piece.

Hello all
Yes, the marks are confusing because this is a fantasy piece. As noted before on this forum, wine tasters are the mostly frequently faked French silver objects. They are made by the thousands for the tourist trade as picturesque souvenirs, eventually finding their way to the secondary market, as the case here, where the confusion begins.
Was this taster made in France? Yes.
Is it made of silver? Yes. What standard? No way to be certain without testing, except that I think I see a boar’s head mark used after 1838 for small objects to the right of the steer head mark, which would indicate at least 800 standard silver.
When was it produced? Probably 20th C.
How do you know that? There is no concordance between the marks. They are fantasy marks. Specifically, a cockerel mark for 950 standard from the provinces, in use 1798-1809; a guarantee mark from the provinces that should have the number of the department around the outside of the mark, not on either side of the head, like a Paris mark would; a pre-Revolutionary ox head discharge mark used from 1774-1780; a rubbed mark on the bottom of the object (where it doesn’t belong) which purports to be a pre-Revolutionary mark of some kind, either a maker or jurande mark. In short, a hodge-podge of marks. There should be a mark on the handle as well, which I don’t see.
What about the Belgian marks? I defer to the Belgian experts, but would agree that the taster was probably marked when imported to Belgium.
Hope this hopes to clarify regarding the French marks.

[amena]

Hi Agman
I know very little about French silver, but a friend of mine suggested that the remains of the old punching that you see could be of the mark of Denis Colombier.



Indeed, there seem to be many correspondences.
What do you think about it?

[AG2012]

Paris 1779 wine taster attributed to Denis COLOMBIER with completely different set of marks.