Morosov fork

[p_helm]

I have a fork with Moroso, which I think would be Morosov, but for the next stamp going over it and obliterating remaining letters.
I was just wanting opinions on the authenticity of the piece.
Many thanks

[AG2012]

Hi,
It is authentic Morozov fork made by a subcontractor A.H.
Assayer А.Ш in St Petersburg is unknown to me.
Many masters preferred to work mainly for large firms.This is reflected in marks on silver products at the time, on which there are often two marks - the name of the master who made rhe item, and the mark of the company for which he worked. The masters who worked for Morozov’s firm had the following marks: Airaksinen Peter - “RA”; Allenius Johann (Ivan) Konstantinovich - “J.A”; Andrei Ferdinandovich Seppyanen - “AS”, “AFS”; Frederic Tiander - "F.T".
The initials: "V. MOROZOV "," MOROZOV "," IM "," AN "," V.M. "," NB "," M.B. "," A.L ":
Regards
Original Russian text:

Многие мастера предпочитали работать преимущественно на крупные фирмы.
Это нашло отражение в клеймении серебряных изделий того времени, на которых очень часто встречаются два клейма — именник мастера, выполнившего данную вещь, и клеймо фирмы, на которую он работал. Работавшие для фирмы Морозова мастера имели следующие клейма: Айраксинен Петер – «РА»; Аллениус Иоганн (Иван) Константинович - «J.A»; Сеппянен Андрей Фердинандович – «АС», «АФС»; Фредерик Тиандер – «F.T».

Инициалы на клейме: «В. МОРОЗОВЪ», «МОРОЗОВЪ», «ИМ», «АН», «В.М», «НБ», «М.Б», «A.L»:

[p_helm]

Thanks for that information AG2012. Much appreciated

[Qrt.S]

Here some more info;

The assayer АШ in St. Petersburg is Aleksandr Timofeyevich Shevyakov 1890-1896(1913?). The maker AH is Adam Herttuainen, a Finn who worked with Morozov. Use the search function in the upper right corner with the keyword "Herttuainen" and you will find more information about him.

[p_helm]

Great info, I got this piece several years back in Estonia, so it ties in

[Qrt.S]

@AG2012

The masters who worked for Morozov’s firm had the following marks: Airaksinen Peter - “RA”; Allenius Johann (Ivan) Konstantinovich - “J.A”; Andrei Ferdinandovich Seppyanen - “AS”, “AFS”; Frederic Tiander - "F.T".
The initials: "V. MOROZOV "," MOROZOV "," IM "," AN "," V.M. "," NB "," M.B. "," A.L ":

The Russian text needs to be updated. Here the amendments, correct spelled names and some additions:

BK possibly Vasily Kangin 1895-1908
FT Fredrik Tiander 1860-1898
AH Adam Herttuainen 18??-1917
JA possibly Johan Allenius 1894-1908
BM Valdimir Morozov 1892-1908
IP/ИП Johan Passonen 1867-1874
AC Anders Johan Seppänen 1870-18??
AL unknown name
MБ Mihail Bogdanov 1892-1912
НБ unknown name
PA Petter Airaksinen 1869-1876
ИМ Ivan Morozov

[Qrt.S]

Ups! Forgot two marks:
BK unknown name
ИА unknown name

and the АФС (AFS) punch for Seppänen is unknown to me even if Ivanov #3763 mentions it. His spelling is....horrible.

[Qrt.S]

One more addition
It is reason to mention that there are actually several Morozows but two famous ones, both court suppliers.

1 Ivan Ekimovich Morozow 1825-1885
and
2 Ivan Ivanovich Morozow 1849-1898(?)

PA and ИМ worked for the latter one

[AG2012]

I suspected Finnish names were misspelled and waited for Qrt.S comment.

Thank you Qrt.S for updating and correcting.

Growing upper middle class and increased demand for silver ruined many small silversmiths who could not compete with massive cheaper production and had to work for bigger firms.Therefore so many subcontractors.
(From the same Russian source).

[Goldstein]

Hi p_helm -

your fork was made by an "overstamped" maker we will never know from St. Petersburg and by some clumsy fakers "upgraded" to a Morozov object. Our residental experts write much but not always correct.

Here the known authentic different marks of I. and W. Morozov - both Court suppliers. Please note the different Court supplier´s eagles.







Here some of the many more or less successful attempts to copy the original stamp from the firm of Morozov:









Mostly the maker A.H is seen on this fakes.

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -
you forgot Wladimir I. Morozov 1892-1908, (PL 1250-51)!

Ups! Forgot two marks:
BK unknown name
ИА unknown name

BK is Kangin Wasilij I. ( PL 1244-46!)

Regards
Goldstein

[p_helm]

i do take it all onboard, but find it hard to understand why you would bother to fake marks on a heavy piece of metal, silver or not, and then go to the the bother of putting a monogram on as well, and then if it is a fake , make 50 bucks profit. It would cost that to make it if not more

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein

One more addition
... there are actually several Morozows but two famous ones, both court suppliers.

BK possibly Vasily Kangin 1895-1908

Sometimes I wonder are you at all familiar with goldsmiths' family histories? You see that can be read from books. Not all books, but some of them contain valuable information.

FYI!
Your mentioned Valdimir Ivanovich Morozov is the son of Ivan Ekimovitch who founded the questioned house I.E. Morozov in 1849. Vladimir took over after his fathers death till 1917. Make a note of that in your records.

As to Vasily Kangin. As you can see above, I wrote ...possibly Kangin...It is an assumption. Most likely it is him, but have you any 100% proof of it? I haven't found any....yet.

If you had known even half of what I wrote in my inputs above, you wouldn't have written what you wrote. Make a note of Morozov's sub-suppliers in your records. Thus avoiding unnecessary comments in the future.

@p_helm
Relax, in Goldstein's mind almost everything regarding Russian silver is faked, just forget it. Read old threads and you see it for yourself.

[Goldstein]

Hi p_ helm -

I do not want to hold a seminar on fakes and how they are made here. Only so much: there are brand new fakes and fakes that were "rebuilt" from old, existing stocks. Forks in this design cost $ 5 20 years ago - they were bought up to hundreds and accordingly provided with a "famous" name (the monogram with crown is particularly suitable). You are certainly not the first to buy this fork! These cutlery items have been in circulation for decades - if one discovers that the fork is genuine, but the punch is wrong - then they sell / trade it again - and the cycle begins again. In the end, this fork has brought in several hundred $$.
A lucrative business!
Today, fakers from low-wage countries (India, China etc) use state-of-the-art computer-controlled machines and flood the world with their products. Therefore, it is understandably very useful to deal with these things before you buy them blindly. Knowledge is power! Learn more about Russian silver or stop buying it!
Or start a fake collection. It is up to you!

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

I love your bizarre expertise, your persistent "I know it all" and your confused writing style. Please stay as you are - never doubt yourself!

Regards
Goldstein

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein

I have never claimed I know it all, far from it. However, I do not like irrelevant comments based on nothing. You made a foolish comment not knowing that Vladimir was Ivan¨s son. That was not a particularly professional statement.

[Goldstein]

Hi Qrt.S -

You made a foolish comment not knowing that Vladimir was Ivan¨s son. That was not a particularly professional statement.

I nowhere made a statement in this direction - I only listed the names and marks. Pure polemic!

There is no doubt among real experts that the brand BK belongs to Kangin! For you, who owns only books but no real objects of the relevant manufacturers - here some pictures to make you more knowledgeable. Books are a good thing - but without real pieces everything remains very theoretical - so you can not see, feel, compare quality and crafting. I do not need to make notes in my records - I have real pieces in my collection of almost all better manufacturers. This distinguishes us and widens the horizon considerably ......

Now copy & paste for your pleasure:


















If you need more - let me know!

Regards
Goldstein

[Goldstein]

Hi -

This is a good example of the unscrupulous way in which the counterfeiters act - knowing that the buyer does not have the slightest idea. I leave it to our home expert to explain the individual stamps .....




Regards
Goldstein

[p_helm]

Thanks for all the responses, greatly appreciated. I do find though the buying of the unknown is the thrill of the buying. Have you bought well or not.
Often you do not know until you get home to check. Better to risk, than not I think

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

[Qrt.S]

@p_helm

Would you have taken the risk and bought the object on the last picture above and in case you would, what was the reason behind this decision?