That "other" Christofle solid silver mark

[Silbermedaille]

Hi,

I have searched the forum and only found this topic concerning the mark from christofle for solid silver used before 1935.

However I think the item in the thread does not show the mark before 1935, as originally stated by the author. Or does it? To me there seem to be two factors. One is the initials (OC vs. CC), the other is the shape of the sourounding (diamond shaped vs. diamond with the corners cut off). This can also be seen in the resources posted later on in the thread. The combination in question by OP is a hybrid with CC but pointy corners.

I have a wine beaker with a mark that has CC and the cut-off-diamond shape:




While googeling I only found one other example of this exact mark on a pair of salad utensils.

Since there seem to be three combinations I am wondering, what exactly determines before 1935? The initials or the shape?
Also, why is this early mark not included in the Christofle Makers' Mark & History page*?

Looking forward to hear some opinions.

*) In case it's because of lack of pictures, I'll be happy to supply one or let you use the one above, taken by me and public domain (so no copyright/credits or whatever...).

[dognose]

Hi Silbermedaille,

Welcome to the Forum.

Many thanks for the image, it's appreciated.

Trev.

[Dendriet]

.

SERVICE A PETITS FOURS EN ARGENT MINERVE - ORFEVRE CHRISTOFLE - MODELE MARLY





CHRISTOFLE - ARGENT MASSIF MINERVE - 6 CUILLERES A CAFE ART NOUVEAU




ANTIQUE 19THC FRENCH SOLID SILVER STATUE, CHRISTOFLE, PARIS C.1860

Since there seem to be three combinations I am wondering, what exactly determines before 1935? The initials or the shape?
Also, why is this early mark not included in the Christofle Makers' Mark & History page*?
Looking forward to hear some opinions.
*) In case it's because of lack of pictures, I'll be happy to supply one or let you use the one above, taken by me and public domain (so no copyright/credits or whatever...).

This will have to be answered by dognose Site Admin Trev.
I can understand it (D. PATRICK 'PAT' STREAMER), but not why it is not adapted
See also
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=51349

[dognose]

Hi Dendriet,

Sorry to hear that you don't think we work hard enough or fast enough on this website. Perhaps you would like your subscription returned?

Trev.

[Dendriet]

Hi Dendriet,
Sorry to hear that you don't think we work hard enough or fast enough on this website. Perhaps you would like your subscription returned?
Trev.

With surprise I have taken note of the above reaction.
I finally thought that someone was right-minded and was paying attention to this item.

While googeling I only found one other example of this exact mark on a pair of salad utensils.

Since he could not find any other examples than the above salad attributes with a blurry image. I have shown that there are many other to see (with special search function)

Also, why is this early mark not included in the Christofle Makers' Mark & History page*?
Looking forward to hear some opinions.

To this pressing question I wanted to give an evasive answer, because I am not going to interfere with internal matters, and have referred them.



What a hassle





_________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mystery Mark on a Silver Basket

Hi Stacy.

I believe those are Christofle silverplate marks.
If your piece were solid silver the maker's mark would be in a lozenge shape.
Christofle produces some of the highest quality silverplate in the world.



Pat.

[Aguest]

Is it really an "O" or could it just be sort of a "Crushed C" where the C is kind of smushed into more of an "O" shape? It could be due to the curved surface of the object, or possibly degradation of the punch, or maybe a smaller punch could cause the "C" to look more like an "O" shape?

[Dendriet]

.
Thanks for your comment
I do nothing for anything without reasons.

If you want to save this Makers Mark (what is mentioned) , it is called Christofleearlymark.jpg (Christofle-early-mark.jpg)
This is posted by 2209patrick who also built Christofle: Marks & History
This means that it is older than the placed photo on the above-mentioned site.

But what is more important is that they had the idea that only in this diamond shaped format could be a Makers Mark.
For the record, I now put the full text of the intended Mystery Mark on a Silver Basket Press Here

Read the very last allinea, and then you will understand from what position one judged at the time. Fri October 24, 2008

But again this is exclusively and only my assumption,

[Traintime]

What strikes me most is the drawings of the "clipped lozenge" mark (now called a variant before 1935)...they seem to miss that the lower two stars are supposed to be oriented outward, rather than aligned straight up and down as found in the early CC and later OC marks. This seems not to be the case for real samples where the stars are turned, and it must confuse people looking at the marks.
I'm certain Christophle doesn't do something without a very explicit reason, so what was the logic in re-orienting the stars and then flipping back again after 1935??

[Traintime]

Sorry, should read Christofle.

[Aguest]

::: I see it now in the context, thank you and I look forward to future research and archive discoveries :::

[Silbermedaille]

First of all, it's great to see that the mark has found it's way to the Christofle page. Sorry if I came across as pressing the issue, that was not my intention. I merly wondered why a site as passionate about details as this has omitted a mark of a quite important silversmith. Anyway, it's there now and that is all that counts. Thanks again.

Thanks Dendriet for providing additional pictures.

What strikes me most is the drawings of the "clipped lozenge" mark (now called a variant before 1935)...they seem to miss that the lower two stars are supposed to be oriented outward, rather than aligned straight up and down as found in the early CC and later OC marks. This seems not to be the case for real samples where the stars are turned, and it must confuse people looking at the marks.
I'm certain Christophle doesn't do something without a very explicit reason, so what was the logic in re-orienting the stars and then flipping back again after 1935??

Good catch! In general I find the drawing of the "clipped lozenge" mark a little disproportionate compared to others on the same page:



One also has to wonder why this clipped shape was used in the first place. To my knowledge the french makers mark had to be in a lozenge shape long time before Christofle was even born. So why does he just go ahead and create a mark that clearly doesn't conform with this standard?! Only to re-do it a couple of years later...

Here's a theory: Christofle Initially designed and registered the clipped lozenge CC mark with the turned stars. He was then compelled to adhere to the standard and therefore had to re-designing the mark with a true lozenge shape. While doing so he stayed with CC initials but took the opportunity to straighten the orientation of the stars. This would be somehow straight forward instead of flip-flop, like Traintime was wondering. The later change to OC kept everything else like it was with the updated CC.

Of course this theory is easily disproven if someone has the corresponding marks on pieces that can clearly be dated the other way around. Unfortunately my knowledge on the subject is very limited and thus I have to ressort to speculation.

[Dendriet]

.


Charles Christofle, born in Paris on October 25, 1805 and died in Brunoy (Essonne) on December 13, 1863.

Christofle's first feature for goldsmiths was registered with the Paris guarantee in 1853. This punch consists of a bee in the middle with three stars above it and surrounded by letters CC, all placed in a hexagon. Since 1935 the label of Christofle has used the same symbols with the letters CC and a diamond circle. The most important Punches and Marks


At the death of Charles Christofle, his son Paul (1838-1907) and his cousin Henri Bouilhet (1830-1910) succeeded him and continued the development of the company. With the development of new techniques (mass plating, enamel, patina, natural fingerprints) and the opening of new factories (Saint Denis and Karlsruhe) Christofle becomes an important goldsmith of the century.

In my opinion (assumption) the Makers Mark with cut-off wings is a modern version of it, created after the death of Charles Christofle in connection with the aforementioned developments of the company.

See also:

Original version research

Christofle

[Dendriet]

.

My honesty requires me to state that the above mentioned simply contradicts what I thought to be read there.

Here, a hexagon is clearly spoken.
This would be mentioned in "Dictionnaire des poinsons de fabricants d'ouvrages d'or et d'argent - Paris 1838-1875 - National Imprimerie 1994 Tome II"

I was convinced that this was the key to the solution, after finding the placed Makers Mark of 2209patrick (Christofle-early-mark.jpg).

The order I described above seemed the most logical to me.

Sorry for this inconvenience

[Dendriet]

---------------Modern hallmarks entered into service on May 10, 1838.--------------










Service-Public-pro.fr Press Here

The operator must register at the guarantee office to which he has declared his manufacturer's stamp (or Makers Mark) or responsibility (or importer's mark).
Each punch is specific to its owner and can identify it.
The manufacturer's hallmark has the shape of a lozenge containing an initial letter of his name and the symbol chosen by him. It can be engraved by the person of his choice.

The Punches of Orfevrerie Press Here

-The goldsmith's hallmark-

The goldsmith's stamp has the shape of a horizontal or vertical lozenge. The goldsmith puts it
any element allowing to identify it (initials AL for Antoine Laroche and Auguste
The rock ; one K and two cherries for Kirstein, ...).
Sometimes the goldsmith has a second hallmark bearing his name in full,
but that is not regulatory.
Do not confuse the goldsmith's mark with the mark of a dealer
(Dufrenoy in Strasbourg, for example). A reseller mark can not have
the shape of a lozenge.

Wikipedia Press Here

-Modern hallmarks come into service on May 10, 1838-

The silver works sold in France then carry:
the master's mark (in lozenge);
the guarantee punch:
for the big works, the head of Minerva (in a rectangle with cut-sides for the title to 950 thousandths said of "first title", in a form of barrel for the title to 800 thousandths said of "second title");
for the minor works, a wild boar's head (title to 950 thousandths) or a crab (title to 800 thousandths).
for small works (eg jewels such as rings, pendants etc.), the boar's head or the crab means that the money used is silver between 800 and 1000 thousandths.

[Silbermedaille]

Charles Christofle, born in Paris on October 25, 1805 and died in Brunoy (Essonne) on December 13, 1863.

Christofle's first feature for goldsmiths was registered with the Paris guarantee in 1853. This punch consists of a bee in the middle with three stars above it and surrounded by letters CC, all placed in a hexagon.

Ok so this source clearly states that the hexagonal mark was indeed the first mark registered in 1853 and thus must be the one used in the beginning years of Christofle. (Side note: If I had only this verbal description of the mark, a drawing of it would most likely come out like the drawing of the mark used in the book. There is no mention of the left and right stars beeing at an angle, so this could explain why the drawing does have upright stars. It was drawn according to an (incomplete) description, not after a real/physical reference mark. This would also explain the odd proportions compared to the other drawings that are more realistic.)

Modern hallmarks come into service on May 10, 1838 [..] the master's mark (in lozenge)

Considering this, my statement above was inaccurate and in the years when Christofle startet working with silver the "markers mark has to be in lozenge shape" standard was not yet in effect. Seems weird though that Christofle still goes with the hexagonal shape 15 years after the standard is established. Didn't he get the memo?

The referenced site does not mention the lozenge shape with the letters OC that was shown in this forum. This strikes me as odd. It does mention that on silver plate Christofle Transitioned from CC to OC in 1935. It seems only logical to assume that the same transition has been done on solid silver, but the source states that from 1935 solid silver has the same symbols and same initials but a lozenge shape. This contradicts the page in the book, where the post 1935 mark has OC.

To summarize... maybe this?

[Traintime]

Given that we have seen a problem in the mark drawings (star orientation), I hate to trust them but we do see a similar change in the silverplate mark around 1862-3. This would be consistent with Dendriet's belief of alterations occuring sometime close to the death of Charles (or just afterwards. Photos of his tongs and other pieces (some datable as to creation of design) would seem to support the full CC lozenge was in useage during the third quarter of the 1800's (and up to c.1935). The clipped wing or hexagon lozenge does not seem to be used during this later era (or have I missed the photo evidence)? Therefore, the changeover date would seem to be c.1862 at the earliest, and probably not later than the 1870's decade.

[Dendriet]

.

If anyone could give me the right solution, then I would have peace with it.

I am very flexible, that was also the reason why I place this issue here

There is no one I can find anywhere that has ever asked a question about it.
Very weird.

On May 10, 1838, there are new regulations regarding the shape of a master's mark
And that is a Lozenge and not a Hexagon

Everyone is very clear about that.
One who is responsible and must control this, that is the Essay Office.


You may also wonder whether that is true in the "Dictionnaire des poinsons de fabricants d'ouvrages d'or et d'argent - Paris 1838-1875 - National Imprimerie 1994 Tome II", because it is inscribed as a Hexagon.

I have never seen a French makers Mark in a Hexagon, only from Christofle.

There are often errors in books that are taken over by others again.

The only one who can answer that is Christofle headquarters in Paris, unfortunately the Musée Bouilhet-Christofle has been closed since 2008.
                                                                                                       
There are many more questions that have not been solved yet.

[Dendriet]

.

It does not seem logical to me, if you have to make your big success shortly before a new breakthrough, and that you then opt for your firts silver makers mark that you know it is based on opposition.

If you do this as a company after having reached the highest point, it is more like a challenge to more fame

[Traintime]

Not to revive any old issues, but simply another reader reference is this ASCAS article from 2010 on variant Christofle silverplate markings in the 1932-35 era: http://www.ascasonline.org/articoloGIUGN130.html