Russian Shot glass - purposely destroyed hallmark?

[VicM52]

I recently inherited my grandfather's Russian shotglass. Family lore tells me he brought this with him when he immigrated to the US in the 1920s. I have been able to identify the city (Moscow) and the Assayer's Mark (Ivan Konstantinov) but I can't determine the maker's hallmark. The more I look, the more I am coming to my own conclusion and I would appreciate feedback because I could be TOTALLY off base.

I am thinking this is a work from Pavel Ovchinnikov, but for some reason the mark has been destroyed, on purpose. I've seen his work on-line and this shotglass is in a very similar style (although much less decorative). I've seen several of his pieces with designs similar to the white "T" at the top of the item. Also, much of his work is in 91 zolotniki (same as this shotglass) which isn't so common. Finally, examples of his work I've found online show the same city mark and Assayer's mark as shown on my shotglass. And the hallmark on my item is the same shape and size as Pavel's mark....except it looks like someone purposely damaged it. You can see the outline of a circle (from about 3 o'clock to 8 o'clock) in the top part of the hallmark leading me to believe it was a different mark at some point, and not the mess it is now.

So, question to the group. Does my theory make sense? If so, why would someone destroy the hallmark on purpose? Maybe it's poor quality so they didn't want to "officially" label it? Maybe it's a prototype of some sort, or a "practice" item? Or, is this a different hallmark that I'm not aware of?

[Ubaranda]

Hello!
I believe that you are right about Ovchinnikov. Why the his mark was destroyed - I do not know. You have listed several reasons - any of them is quite possible...
Regards.

[VicM52]

Thanks Ubaranda - Have you ever seen a hallmark destroyed like this before? If this is indeed what happened, it was done very carefully so as not to disturb the other markings which is very strange (at least to me).

Do you (or anyone else) know if this is common? Are there other examples of this happening?

[Qrt.S]

It is not so uncommon to see this, it exists. During the early days of the Soviet era, the Bolsheviks destroyed the marks as "capitalist propaganda". Then they tried to sell lots of valuable objects to the west in order to balance their poor economy. Among those some of the Fabergé eggs. When the buyers saw the destroyed marks, the value dropped dramatically. The object was destroyed! Then the Bolsheviks stopped to do it.

[VicM52]

Thank you Qrt.S. I understand where you are coming from, but I wonder why the Bolsheviks would be so careful to only destroy the makers mark and not touch anything else? Also, since the shot glass is dated 1875, my guess is that it's been in my family's possession the whole time. My great-grandfather was a high ranking officer in the Tsar's army and my grandfather was a major in his cavalry. If the Bolsheviks got a hold of them, they would have done a lot more damage than just ruining a makers mark.

This is certainly something to consider, and I will look deeper into the history of the shot glass to see if I can learn more from relatives.

Thanks again!

[Qrt.S]

I understand where you are coming from,

??? What has that to do with this?

Nonetheless, destroying the hallmark would have made the object worthless because a hallmark is an official guarantee of valuable metal (silver) still today. Without it the object would be a piece of scrap metal only. Mind my saying, but I doubt that the "stopka" has been in your family's possession the whole time. What I believe is that your grandfather bought it just before he emigrated to USA, possibly in order to sell it there. Maybe he bought a lot of silver objects and they were all sold by time to stay alive. This one he saved as a last memory from his former homeland. This is a more reasonable explanation. I strongly believe that that could have been the case because my ancestors fled the revolution to Finland and made the same thing. They had money but it was in the wrong currency and not worth a rotten dime due to the revolution but silver is always silver.....
Maybe you have noticed that people in theses corona days buy valuable metals mostly gold because gold is as well always gold, a valuable "currency" all over the world. This is what happens when things tend to go bad.

[VicM52]

Hello again Qrt.S It's a reasonable point you make. I am asking family now to see if they have any idea when the shot glass was acquired. Perhaps it was just to transport the value as you mention...although I still also have about 15 000 Rubles in bills in my possession so they were willing to carry worthless cash as well. Sad part is, today it's still almost worthless.

However, one thing still puzzles me....if this was done in an effort only to destroy the piece of art, why would the Bolsheviks leave the Assayer's Mark and the city mark in perfect condition? It's clear the maker's mark was covered very carefully which seems not to be aligned with a group looking to ruin artwork. Was there a reason to keep those other marks visible?

[AG2012]

Hi,
Erased and overstruck marks are not uncommon;the revolution cannot be the only culprit because the practice is observed elsewhere, too.
It would be interesting to search for legislation (not only in Russia) in regard of this:
Silver changed ownership due for various reasons;silversmiths died and not every business remained in the family, some went bankrupt,some retired,got very sick etc.
For whatever reason,the whole stock of their silver was sometimes sold to dealers,merchants,retailers,silversmiths etc.Tax has already been paid on the silver, and when brought to market by new owner the marks of the original maker certainly became useless, unlike assayer's mark proving that tax was paid.
Whatever happened,there is no doubt silver did not always remain in the possession of the maker until the whole stock was sold out.
Again,legislation is needed to shed some light on this.
In regard of family owned silver,let's have in mind girls married much earlier than today and had children in their twenties. Meaning,since 1875 there were six generations,i.e. not just great grandfather, but great great great great-grandfather (or 4rd great-grandfather,at least).Even Habsburgs had the problem with keeping silver in family all the time.
Regards

[VicM52]

Hi AG2012, thanks for your comments. I think looking into legislation would be really interesting. My Russian is pretty poor so I will have to rely on family in that case - and I will have to find a way to motivate them! I guess I can also look into Pavel Ovchinnikov's life to see if there are any events in his business where he could have sold off all his silver or something.

As for generations - great grandfather born 1870, grandfather born 1895, father born 1934 and I was born 1967 so only four generations. And we have good documentation (memoirs of great grandfather and great grandmother) which give indications of what they may or may not have brought with them when fleeing in the 1910's and 1920's. While we don't have an itemized list of things, throughout the memoirs they make comments about living conditions, what they are carrying and so on. I will have to re-read them with a focus on this topic.

Thanks again for the helpful comments.

[VicM52]

@Qrt.S - I can confirm that the shot glass was a gift to my grandfather from a very close family friend in Russia. This is why it survives to this day, and was not sold even in the difficult first years in America. My grandfather would only use the shot glass for special toasts, on special occasions. In this case it seems the item was kept not for silver value, or for its artistic value but rather as a memory of a close friend. Still the mystery exists about the makers mark, but I guess that may never be known with certainty.

[Qrt.S]

@Vic52M
OK, so be it, but it still doesn't exclude the possibility that it was bought after the revolution just before the emigration. Of course it can be a gift from friend. A klst good bye before leaving the country. I have never seen maker's marks destroyed like this before the revolution. What exists then was over stamping but this is not the case here. It is a typical Bolshevik job. What support this theory is the podstakannik in your other thread. The engraved name is unfamiliar to you, i.e bought for sale. Please note that after the revolution objects of value were sold to scrap value as I told you earlier.

[VicM52]

@Qrt.S - Of course you are correct....no possibility can be excluded. The answers you and the others have provided have already helped more than I expected and it has started a dialog within my family that is most interesting. So again, thank you.

I can confirm my family remembers the shot glass. It was "always" in the family. My grandparents fled in the summer of 1918 and went from St. Petersburg to Petrograd to Odessa to Turkey to Prinkipo to Constantinople to New York in 1920. They had the shot glass before departing for New York.

Regarding the podstakannik, family only recalls seeing this much later....maybe the 1950s. So this was most likely purchased in the US...maybe as a momento of times gone by. Again, maybe just for the silver. Or, maybe the family had it all along and my relatives simply don't remember. They're all old now and memories and dates get confused. As I talk to more relatives, hopefully the picture becomes more clear. At least now, with the information I have here, I am in a much better position to understand. Thanks again.

One final question...have you seen or heard of other examples where the Bolsheviks were so careful in destroying the makers mark but not the other marks? To me, that is the one piece that seems out of place. I would have expected that they destroy all the marks in a hurried fashion, without regard for aesthetics.

[Qrt.S]

@VicM52
As to the last paragraph in your message above. A lot has been written in this thread. Please reread it and you will find that both AG2012 and I already told you that destroyed Russian maker's mark is not uncommon and as why it was done. Destroying the hall-/control mark would have destroyed the object's value to scrap value. Aesthetics has not to do with this. The word is simply stupidity.

Moreover, oral history has a tendency to change the more people/generations are involved. Its is human to forget and/or misremember things or even gild it.

Finally a minor amendment to your ancestors' escape route. St. Petersburg and Petrograd is one and the same city. St. Petersburg changed its German name to Russian Petrograd (Peter's town) on the doorstep to the Great War (WW1) in 1914. The name was changed again to Leningrad (Lenin's town) in 1924 when Lenin died. In 1991 it took back its former name St Petersburg. Moreover, Peter the Great founded the town in 1703, but the name Petersburg ( Peter's castle) doesn't refer to him, the emperor, but to Saint Peter, one of the twelve apostles.

[VicM52]

Hi Qrt.S - yes, a lot has been written and as I've said many times, it's all appreciated. However, I still don't understand why someone who wants to "destroy" a piece of art does it as delicately as erasing one of three marks while leaving the others intact. I would expect that they were much more heavy handed in their efforts, using industrial tools like hammers or screwdrivers and the like, and really destroying it. It's like "destroying" the Mona Lisa by removing DiVinci's name and nothing else. I think I would still hang the painting in the Louvre if this were the case. Anyway, maybe I will never understand, but I guess the Bolsheviks did many things which didn't make sense and I won't understand.

And yes, my bad for "double counting" St. Petersburg. Of course they are the same city. Thanks for the correction.

[AG2012]

"destroy" a piece of art

At the time when marks were destroyed it was far from being considered a piece of art, it was simply an utilitarian vodka shot made the day before yesterday with many similar items flying around and easily affordable by families of moderate income.And close to the revolution it had only scrap value.It is well known the first traders from the West who approached the Bolshevik government exchanged wheat and corn for Renaissance paintings from the Hermitage,not being interested in Russian silver at all.And as a gesture of goodwill they were given Faberge Imperial Easter eggs.
Only recently Russian silver became lucrative and fashionable,collectible and faked.Including Judaica which is faked in huge quantity and every average Vienna Zuckerdose became precious ``etrog`` box.
Destroyed marks were discussed above.
Maker`s mark was destroyed so it could enter the market devoid of provenance,but assayer's mark and fineness were
kept to prove the standard.The same practice was observed with overstruck marks;new owner of the stock,merchant or retailer either added their own marks or overstruck original marks.
Merchandise,that's all.
Regards

[Juke*]

Hi!

I am somewhat surprised as the quality of the item in addition to the markings make me believe the item to be a forgery. The markings are somewhat disturbing in comparison to real markings.

The quality is way below any cloisonné item from the Russian period in particularly to be from the famous Ovchinnikov.

Regards,
Juke

[solo]

[VicM52]

Hello solo - VERY INTERESTING! The markings, or lack of them, seem identical to mine. And the design on the shotglass also looks of the same quality. Do you have any details on your piece? I would appreciate any information you have.