What city mark and maker

[GeorgeG]

[Theoderich]

Hello George,
is there any engravin with a name or town or date?

[GeorgeG]

[Theoderich]

very nice

1684
in Vreden ... another Chalice is in Coesfeld from 1670? or 1676
ref W.Scheffler p62

The maker is not known and in Scheffler was "Zuschreibung unter Vorbehalt" the town Attendorn.
But I think it is not Attendorn.
There was an other objekt on an Lempertz-Auktion from this maker and with this hallmark.
Auktion 1056/Lot 501

I hope, we will solve this riddle.

[Theoderich]

So I think it would bei Vreden.


In Scheffler p. 975
Vreden Nr.1 is a maker Witte. His son Theodor became an apprentice in 1708 (6 Years) in Coesfeld.

[GeorgeG]

Thank you very much for information and your time

[AG2012]

Hi,
Do not take it for granted the chalice in this condition being over 300 years old.
Catholic Church Supplies and Church Goods from Poland and elsewhere make excellent Baroque replicas in gilt silver; chased and embossed.Attractive and lucrative marks and engravings are added by unscrupulous dealers.
Regards

[Theoderich]

Thank you very much for information and your time

I thank You for your interesting question and images.
Your question and the images are the base to solve this old riddle.

[Theoderich]

Hi,
Attractive and lucrative marks and engravings are added by unscrupulous dealers.
Regards

This engravings and this marks looks very OK for me.

[Theoderich]

Hi,
Do not take it for granted the chalice in this condition being over 300 years old.
Catholic Church Supplies and Church Goods from Poland and elsewhere make excellent Baroque replicas in gilt silver; chased and embossed.Attractive and lucrative marks and engravings are added by unscrupulous dealers.
Regards

I researched and searched old documents in the hope of finding the Informations to this chalice.
So far without success, so that I don't want to completely exclude your comments.
Do you have any indications of similarly looking chalices and fake hallmarks and engravings
that you can see how well the counterfeiters have mastered this work?
I have no Informations that church silver being counterfeited, but I am learning.

The chalice would have to be examined by a specialist.

If the engravings were a fake, my attribution to Vreden would be very uncertain.

[AG2012]

The chalice would have to be examined by a specialist.

Fully agree.
The problem is how the chalice emerged in Warsaw,1000 km east of Vreden after 325 years in this condition; long time ago I gave up believing in miracles,great finds in garage sales and thrift shops,dealers outsmarted by amateur collectors etc.
Regards

[amena]

Hi Theo

I have no Informations that church silver being counterfeited, but I am learning.

Well, you can also find church silver items with fancy hallmarks.
For example in this cross
https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/be ... oce+astile#
you can see a hallmark that leaves you puzzled by its crispiness after 310 years. Furthermore, that type of "flowery" crown is not at all analogous to the shape of the crowns of the time.
It is very similar to the shape of the crowns of Mr. Ciro Jacomino, who loved to produce objects in the forms of past centuries.
(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )
Sometimes, in his works,there are also modern stamps, sometimes not.
I believe that the cross was donated by a believer in good faith, as an object of worship in the old style, without wanting to deceive anyone.
But evidently someone was deceived.
Best
Amena

[Theoderich]

Hi Theo

I have no Informations that church silver being counterfeited, but I am learning.

Well, you can also find church silver items with fancy hallmarks.
For example in this cross
https://www.beweb.chiesacattolica.it/be ... oce+astile#
you can see a hallmark that leaves you puzzled by its crispiness after 310 years. Furthermore, that type of "flowery" crown is not at all analogous to the shape of the crowns of the time.
It is very similar to the shape of the crowns of Mr. Ciro Jacomino, who loved to produce objects in the forms of past centuries.
(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )
Sometimes, in his works,there are also modern stamps, sometimes not.
I believe that the cross was donated by a believer in good faith, as an object of worship in the old style, without wanting to deceive anyone.
But evidently someone was deceived.
Best
Amena

I thank You Amena,
I think the engraving and the hallmarks are OK. But very often the cuppa and the nodus was changed.

[AG2012]

Hi,
I think I have solved the mystery based on geographical location of Vreden.
Theo was right about the engraved inscription Vreden being authentic, the rest must be a marriage.
Look at the map;Vreden is in Germany but what is the closest town ?
Zwolle in Netherlands.
What was the mark of Zwolle ?
Shield with cross of various form.

Let's wait for Peter to engage.
Regards

[oel]

Perhaps the town mark of Zutphen. At the moment no access to my library till the 18th of August.
Best,

Peter.

[Theoderich]

Hi,

Zwolle in Netherlands.
What was the mark of Zwolle ?

Netherlands with only two marks?
I don't believe it.

[oel]

Marks on pedestal.
I believe it to be the maker's mark of an unknown silversmith working in the city of Ootmarsum
in the province of Overijssel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ootmarsum

To my knowledge the city of Ootmarsum never had an official silver guild various cities in the province of Overijssel have a cross in their city-crest.
As mentioned the city of Vreden Germany is around 59 km away of Ootmarsum.


Source; Tentoonstelling Overijssels stadszilver Provinciaal Overijssels Museum Zwolle November 1976
Unknown maker's mark seen on beaker made around 1700

Peter.

[Theoderich]

very interesting Peter.
Is there an image of this item and marks?

[oel]

Hi Theo,

No unfortunately no image of the beaker (#82) and mark shown in booklet, I wonder why not?
The museum in 1976 attributed another beaker #81 with the city crest of Ootmarsum and the year 1670 with twice the maker's mark LS in oval, and a hunting-horn # 83 with the city crest of Ootmarsum, Anno 1663. The beakers and hunting horn are located in the Town Hall of Ootmarsum.
However in my opinion this does not necessarily mean these items are made by silversmiths located in Ootmarsum, the beakers and hunting horn could have been made in a another (German) city in the vicinity of Ootmarsum .


Beaker #81 maker's mark LS in oval (twice)
Hunting Horn #83


Peter.

[oel]

I have been asked by Historisch Centrum Overijssel, for a clear enhanced image of the engraved letters and word before.... in Vreden 1684. Please show us a clear enhanced image(s) of the complete inscription. Thanks for your cooperation.

Peter