Large serving tray/pot with lid (and possibly hot water bassin), 18thC Hungarian?

[MMollari]

I recently bought this rather large lidded pot with what I assume is a hot water bassin at the bottom (although it could just as well hold other food). It has a makers mark that says RH and another mark that could possibly be the mark for Györ in Hungary (1st half of 18th century according to Ole Hæstrup's book "Håndbog for Sølvsamlere" (it is mark 1931 on page 225)). Both the tray inside and the bottom of the piece have these marks, the only part with no stamp is the lid.
What do you think? I haven't had much luck finding other examples of this mark (or Hungarian marks prior to 1753 or so). Thanks in advance !

[AG2012]

Hi,
That is not shield with cross mark of Gyor used in early 18th century.
Austria-Hungary empire had well established hallmarking system and the mark does not belong there.
Regards

[MMollari]

Hi,
That is not shield with cross mark of Gyor used in early 18th century.
Austria-Hungary empire had well established hallmarking system and the mark does not belong there.
Regards

I am sure that is true, for the Austria-Hungary empire, but since it wasn't established until 1867, and the mark I've mentioned is from the 1st half of the 18th century (1700-1750), I really can't see the conflict (other than my own doubt that this piece is that old). I have not seen any examples of the shield and cross mark prior to 1753.
I will take a picture of the mark in the book tomorrow and post it here.

[Aguest]

Based on the style why would you not consider "Swedish Gustavian Silver" (a good search term to use) so there would be a maker's mark and a town mark only? ::: There is an acorn finial and other design elements which would point towards Swedish Gustavian Silver. :::

[Aguest]

A fascinating observation. ::: Look at the acorn finial on the top of the cover. :::: So you see the acorn part, right? :::: Now notice the four-lobed part underneath the acorn? It seems like that part would match the four-lobed hallmark on the base ::: There are four petals which when lined up have a star in the center. ::: I would guess that the silversmith is paying homage to his town with that applied element underneath the acorn finial. ::: Somewhere there is a complete list of 18th century Swedish Town Hallmarks, although I have not ever actually found this list, I have heard that such a list exists ::::

[Qrt.S]

I'm afraid that there is hardly anything in the marks indicating Sweden. As very well known, the Swedish hallmarking system is very strict and has almost always been it. The cat's paw is missing and the town mark isn't Swedish either. Only that eliminates Sweden as country of origin.

However, I'll give you my best shot. It could be from Norway. The Norwegian marking system is not so strict, not even close to neither Sweden nor Finland (similar systems in both countries). My wild guess would be Rasmus Elias Hansen in Bergen, born 1788 and dead 1825. He became master 1816. He marked with a quite similar RH mark. May I point out that this is a long shot, because the "flower" mark is far from Bergen's town mark of a caste above 7 cannon balls.

Here you will find Swedish town marks:
https://www.silverstamplar.com/town-marks.html
A "complete" list of Swedish town mark is found in the book Svenskt Silversmide 1520-1850. Now and then for sale on internet.

[huszas76]

This is defenetily not a Hungarian item.
Best regards!
Krisztián

[Qrt.S]

@MMollari

Based on the style why would you not consider "Swedish Gustavian Silver" (a good search term to use) so there would be a maker's mark and a town mark only? ::: There is an acorn finial and other design elements which would point towards Swedish Gustavian Silver. :::

FYI!
The Swedish gustavian era (Louis seize style) 1772-1785-1810 relates to Gustav III, king of Sweden 1771-1792. As you can see, the era was not during the first half of 18th century but during the latter half.

[Aguest]

I swear I have seen Swedish silver items from the 18th century with only a maker's mark and a town mark so still don't understand why this couldn't be from Sweden ::: Even if this technically isn't "Gustavian Swedish Silver" it still helps the owner to find other pieces which resemble this piece, so the search term is still helpful even if this is from an earlier period of time. ::: I was going to suggest Norway as well, but the form just seemed more like Sweden to me. ::: The "Cat's Paw" three crown hallmark has only been used since 1754, so why couldn't this object be pre-1754? ::::

[Aguest]

The Trondheim Flower from the year 1744 perhaps you should take a look at the hallmark wiki because there is one variation of the flower which only has 4 lobes and has a "plus-sign" type of symbol in the middle of it. ::::

[Qrt.S]

@Aguest

Of course you have seen Swedish silver without the cat's paw etc. I have too, but that is as you mentioned made before 1754. The problems are the followings:
1.The "flower" mark could be a town mark, but there is not a single town mark in Sweden that looks even close to your mark.
2. I cannot find any suitable maker in the whole Sweden that punched RH. Check yourself in the link I gave you.
3. If it s made not later that during the first half of the 18th century or earlier, it would be in baroque style, is it? In my eyes more neoclassical style . That would be around the turn of the century 18-19., but...matter of opinion...?

AG2012 suggests Trondheim/NO referring to the "flower" like mark. Yes Trondheim has used a variant with 4 lobes in the late 18th century, but a problem arises. There is no RH in Trondheim except for the one found in Bergen. I mentioned him as a "guess" because there are some similarities. Unfortunately he was active in Bergen and its town mark is quite different as I mentioned earlier. I don't think it is him anyway.

I checked Denmark too, but no luck. This is a difficult case, sorry.

[AG2012]

Hi,
There are three parts of the object; are all marks shown and where are they ?

Several facts seem probable:
1. Almost all European countries with well established hallmarking systems can be excluded.
2. Open minded approach is always useful; the object here could be much younger than first suggested; meaning, it`s not early 18th century but made much, much later.
This is from Rosenberg under Swedish section (Book IV) whatever it means and the resemblance is questionable.
Regards

[Qrt.S]

Unfortunately Rosenberg is outdated. It mostly contains information from 1500-1900. I have never read, seen or heard that any "Provinzstemplung" would have taken place in whole Sweden.
Btw, Blekinge is not a "Provintz" it is a county on the east coast of Sweden. The town Karlskrona is located there and all silver control marking in Blekinge took place there. Moreover, in those days all control/assay offices were located in towns only. Anyway, nice try AG2012.

[MMollari]

A quick reply before people keep repeating the "swedish theory". I own the book mentioned about Swedish Silversmiths (for anyone interested, the latest edition can still be bought from nordiskamuseet.se), and there is no town mark that resembles the cross/clover/whatever-it-is, in that book.
I have taken a sharper photo of the mark in question that I will post a little later today (as well as the reference I mentioned yesterday).
And thank you all for your replies, I was a little overwhelmed when I checked in!

[MMollari]

[MMollari]

This is from Ole Hæstrup's "Håndbog for Sølvsamlere" danish handbook on silver marks, released in 1986.

[Qrt.S]

It is interesting that exactly with the same number 1931 (page 225) and outlook the information is found in Jan Divis' book: Guide to Silver Marks of the World, published 1998. This is again a typical example of how the vast majority of silver books are copied copies of copied copies of copied copies....none is checked, everything is swallowed with correct or incorrect information, spread widely and suddenly it becomes the whole truth but based on nothing!

"It must be the truth because it is mentioned in so many books" AAARRRGHHHH!

FYI
Divis' book contains quite a lot of questionable information.

[AG2012]

Hi,
Vague similarity to Raab cross is not enough to attribute this particular item to a small town in Hungary, and being in the pristine condition after 300 years across the continent.
It would be really unprofessional to do so, and most of us here stopped believing in miracles long time ago.
Regards

[AG2012]

In regard of Qrt.S comment; the same set of marks for Raab are found in Tardy; reproduced and endlessly reproduced in spite of the fact who has ever seen Raab early 18th century silver to corroborate the issue ?
``Great find`` is not what we believe in, much more is needed for that.

[MMollari]

I just wonder where you got the impression that I thought it was the whole truth? If I thought that, there would be no reason to post here, right?

Now that we've got that out of the way, I would still like to see what the Hungarian marks look like BEFORE 1750, because as much as I've looked around, I've had absolutely no luck finding any examples (and this still does not imply that I think it is Hungarian or from before 1750, but I am curious).

It is interesting that exactly with the same number 1931 (page 225) and outlook the information is found in Jan Divis' book: Guide to Silver Marks of the World, published 1998. This is again a typical example of how the vast majority of silver books are copied copies of copied copies of copied copies....none is checked, everything is swallowed with correct or incorrect information, spread widely and suddenly it becomes the whole truth but based on nothing!

"It must be the truth because it is mentioned in so many books" AAARRRGHHHH!

FYI
Divis' book contains quite a lot of questionable information.