Gold marks on a french 18th snuff box

[jaume]

Hi everyone,

I suppose it will be difficult, but I would like to know your opinion about the marks of the snuff box that I show you.

It is supposed to be French, probably Parisian and from the late 18th century. It is made in tortoiseshell with gold ornaments

Thanks and advance and best wishes

Jaume

[AG2012]

Hi,
Paris had cursive crowned letters for gold practically throughout 18th century; something I do not see here, not even close.
Regards

[jaume]

Hi,

The frustrated mark on the right, could hide it. In any case, you think it's a French box, isn't?

And some ideas about the rest of marks?

Regards

Jaume

[oel]

When the marks are confusing check if not for late 18th Geneva bijou-tiers or late 18th century Hanau bijou-tiers (gold 18-carat little shell mark and gold 19-th carat with a small bird's head).

Best,

Peter.

[jaume]

Hi Peter,

I have tried to follow your advice but I cannot find similar marks. I'll wait to receive the box and try to get a better image. Especially the smallest one that seems clearer.

I keep thinking about possible French origin, for its 4 marks: jurande, charge, décharge and letter of the city....but not sure, of course

Regards

Jaume

[jaume]

Hi,

I've found this mark on a gold snuff box with the mark of "jurande" than belongs to Jean Baptiste Fouache 1775-1781. Do you think the marks with intermixed letters are similars?

Thank You

Jaume

[oel]

Both the rubbed marks.


Yes I can see similarities. Your mark at top faded/rubbed weak punch.


Peter.

[jaume]

Thanks Peter,

When I receive the box, I will take pictures of the smallest mark that should be a monkey head, shared with the example of the box that I have exposed (As it appears in this image) " Poinçon de décharge Tête de singe 1775-1781"

We will see.....

Regards to everybody

Jaume

[jaume]

Hi,

If any of you follow this post, I wanted to share your opinions again. I have found three punches corresponding to the mark "monkey's head" (Poinçon de décharge : tête de singe 1775-1781)
Due to the different impact of the hammer, they maintain distant but connected nuances. It's the "poinçon de décharge" used by Jean-Baptiste Fouache (1775-1781).





The second image corresponds to the box we are analyzing

I'll share sharper images next week. At the moment, we have two brands of the contrast office. They allow us to limit the chronological section (1775-1781)

The less clear mark should correspond to "Poinçon de charge. P pour Paris" (crowned letter "p")

And the last, it is assumed from the master silversmith, that it will be difficult to identify.

Thanks for your comments

Regards

Jaume

[jaume]

Hi everyone,

I have finally managed to obtain images that confirm the chronological section of the box's elaboration

1.- Charge mark: Jean Baptiste Fouache 1775-1781



2.- Release mark: Monkey head (tête de singe), 1775-1781 (Jean Baptiste Fouache office)



The following images are the ones that offer more doubts.

3.- Master goldsmith mark:
A capital A is seen. About her a point.



The most frequent name of French goldsmiths is Antoine. I have located the marks of three goldsmiths of the time whose first name begins with A
The fisrt one belongs to Antonine Boullier

The second one to Antonie Gaspard Loret
upload photo
The Third to Antoine Dutry

Neither candidate convinces me. Maybe some of you can help me



4.- Guarantee mark (Paris): crowned letter
I'm not sure but the best image I have been able to get with contrast is the one I show you, I seem to guess an N (Paris, 1776-1777)



The last image corresponds to the N of another gold snuff box so that you can compare.



Thanks for your patience

Regards

Jaume

[jaume]

This is the list of letters with their chronologies for your information.

Regards

Jaume

[JayT]

Hello
Here are some comments regarding your box:
-Both halves of the box should be marked.
-I don’t follow your logic that the majority of Paris makers’ marks beginning with A are for Antoine. You're leaving out all the Alexandre and André, not to mention Ambroise!
-In looking at the index in Nocq, he lists approximately 140 makers beginning with A. You could eliminate about 50% who worked before the second half of the 18thC, leaving you the quite a project to review the marks of those remaining.
-Without a second initial or a symbol, it will be difficult to get a good attribution for the maker of your box.
-Other sources for information are the catalogues of 2 museums: Le Petit Palais, and Le Musée Cognac-Jay, which have large collections of French 18thC gold boxes.

Good luck in your continuing research.

Nocq, Henry. Le poinçon de Paris: répertoire des maitres-orfèvres de la juridiction de Paris depuis le moyen-age jusqu’à la fin du XVIIIe siècle. 5 volumes. Paris, Floury, 1926. This is THE reference text for pre-Revolutionary Paris maker’s marks in terms of reliability and completeness.

Regards.

[jaume]

Hello,

First of all, thanks for your time and comments.

I inform you that the box is only fully marked in its lower compartment. Only the discharge mark (monkey's head) appears on the lid.

You are absolutely right that I should look for other names that begin with A., even though it is the most frequent group. I began by verifying the marks published by the NY MET in 1960 that can be consulted online "The Metropolitan Museum of Art.THREE CENTURIES OF FRENCH DOMESTIC SILVER by Dennis Faith". The most similar mark found here is André Louis Cassé but it does not correspond to ours. I have not located the mark of Ambroise Nicolas Cousinet to which I suppose you are referring too.

André Louis Cassé:



Although with doubts, it seems to me to observe to the right of the A a crown. I also think that underneath, the trace of a letter that would correspond to a C, G or O could be hidden (but I'm not sure of course) and would be the initial of the goldsmith's last name.

Thank you for your proposals of sources to continue investigating. I have been consulting the marks of all the pieces marked by Alaterre, Fouache and Clavel at Le Musée Cognac-Jay, without success.

I don't know how to consult Nocq, Henry. Le poinçon de Paris, for the moment, but I will continue insisting...

Best Regards

Jaume

[JayT]

Hello again
In the maker’s mark reserve you’ll find a crowned fleur-de-lys with a grain on either side on every piece of 18thC silver or gold from Paris. In addition to the maker’s initials you should also find a symbol specific to the maker. Therefore the crown you see won’t help you identify your maker as it is generic.
Hope this helps.

[jaume]

Thanks again,

I take note of your information.

These are the best images I can get.

I won't bother you for a few days.

Happy week

Jaume

[jaume]

Hi to everybody!

Finally, the observations of experts have allowed to attribute the authorship of the goldsmith work of this box to ANDRÉ-LOUS CASSÉ (Paris 1722-1779)

Goldsmith stamps from Paris always have the same composition:
1.- crowned fleur de lis (Only the fleur-de-lis can be seen in this box. The crown was not stained on her)
2.- Two grains "grains de remède". (Only one of them visible)
3.- A symbol of the goldsmith, "le différent" (In the case of A.L. Cassé, a crown, perfectly visible)
4.- A Monogram AL/C (Perfectly visible the A (André) and strokes of the C (Cassé) , corresponding to his family name) The last letter always corresponds to the surname (Cassé).

We have compared with the punches of the opportune chronological section for Paris and only the one of AL Cassé matches our brand.

Thanks again for your patience

Regards

Jaume

[oel]

Hi Jaume,

Thanks for the update and congratulated with your findings.


Peter.

[jaume]

Thanks Peter.

Those of us who like research, we seek to solve and discover and along the way, learn.

And it is always satisfying to draw conclusions. It is also a pleasure to share it with everyone.

Greetings to all!!

Jaume

[GiulyF]

Dear Jaume
good afternoon.
I intrude on this post to ask you how to access this publication accessible online as you wrote "The Metropolitan Museum of Art.THREE CENTURIES OF FRENCH DOMESTIC SILVER by Dennis Faith">> because online I can't find anything except the volume to buy.. can you help me?

[jaume]

Hi there,

I got them from the MET website, but I see that they are no longer available.

I sent you a private message.

Regards

Jaume