Coffee set – help with hallmarks

[coffee1st]

Set of coffee pot, sugar bowl and creamer. I need help identifying the hallmarks. Have been doing some online research and I’m just stuck!

Picture of the complete set:


Here’s what I think I know:
-They look like they are British sterling (silver standard is lion gardant), made in London before 1821 (leopard with crown mark).
-The year mark looks like an L with a crown above, which is not consistent with year marks published online. Bit of a mystery there or perhaps a fake?
-The duty mark looks like George III, but not sure. The plot thickens?
-The sugar bowl has a different maker mark than the coffee and creamer. Sigh?
-The maker's mark on the coffee/creamer looks like JAO. The maker's mark on the sugar looks like CIMS. There's another little mark next to the maker's mark on the sugar, but I can't tell what it is. I don't think it's a blemish, but it could be as the pieces were in an earthquake (1989) which sadly put a few dents in the coffee pot.

Posting pictures of the hallmarks for each piece as some are clearer than others.

Hallmark for the coffee pot:


Hallmark for the creamer:


Hallmark for the sugar bowl: (Note the maker’s mark is different.)


I am beyond grateful for any help you can give me.

[amena]

At first glance I would say they are fantasy marks.
But English silver is not my forte.
Best regards
Amena

[dognose]

Hi,

Welcome to the Forum.

I agree with Amena, at least partial pseudo marks, I'm guessing Portuguese or, perhaps more likely, Brazilian.

I'll move the topic to the 'Other Countries' forum for a start.

Trev.

[coffee1st]

Thank you! When I couldn't figure out the duty or date stamp I began to suspect that they were not really made in London... I do know that they are very old and have been in the same family for at least four generations. I am researching the family to determine whose initials are engraved on the set.

[coffee1st]

I'm wondering if the "L" with the star over it could signify Lisbon. Does anyone else have any ideas on a way to identify the maker? Other sources? Any advice is greatly appreciated!

[Funkel]

Good morning, I hope I can help. Greetings

[coffee1st]

Buenas dias! I am sooooooo excited to get this information. Honestly, if you could see me you would think I won the lottery. I'm having a hard time typing because I can't sit still and I have so many questions! And my questions have questions!

-Can you share your source for the marks with me? Do you have a hallmark book (what is the name?) or did you find this information online (please send links?)?

-Do you have any opinions on the other marks (lion, leopard crowned, or assay mark)? Do you agree with the other contributors that those are "pseudo marks" or do they have meaning in Portuguese hallmarking?

-This isn't a question... I'm just enjoying researching this new path. I found a number of antique french empire period tea/coffee sets that had similar "fantasy" elements like a horse or swan's head on the spout, but the shape of the coffee/teapots, the length of the legs, etc just didn't match. I found one today in a Portuguese museum that is similar in style, albeit much more elegant and previously owned by none other than Napoleon himself, but the shape of the individual items is a much closer match to my set. Here is the link: https://www.casa-museumedeirosealmeida. ... leao-1815/ I would like to learn more about the silver trade in Portugal and will look more online.

Who knew silver could be so fascinating??? I have to say that this forum is amazing. I'm so grateful for everyone's kind assistance.

[Funkel]

Google Translation
Good morning, I am very glad to know that I have been of help in your investigation. The Portuguese trademark book in the following:
"Brands of Portuguese Contrasts and Ourives" by Manuel Gonçalves and Fernando Moitinho.
As for English brands, two things strike me:
The first is the lack of two marks, the year and the manufacturer. If we assume that they are legal marks, it would seem that the pieces were taken to an English office for testing, to check if they were sterling silver pieces. In 1784 a new tax was imposed and it was represented with the bust of the regent king, it was applied until 1890 and this fits with the Portuguese marks since they are from the beginning of the 19th century.
The second is the sharpness and detail that the English marks have, it is not normal, I am sending you an example:
.
My theory is that the pieces are Portuguese from the beginning of the 19th century. (with legal trademarks, not pseudo - marks). For some reason they were tested in an office in London, to verify the legality of the silver and that being marked for that sole purpose, they used new punches, (hence that sharpness and detail).
All the best

Buenos días, me alegra mucho saber que he sido de ayuda en su investigación. El libro de marcas portuguesas en el siguiente:
"Marcas de Contrastes e Ourives Portugueses" de Manuel Gonçalves y Fernando Moitinho.
En cuanto a las marcas inglesas, me llama la atención dos cosas:
La primera es la falta de dos marcas, la del año y la del fabricante. Si suponemos que son marcas legales, podría pesar que las piezas se llevaron a ensayar a una oficina inglesa, para comprobar si eran piezas de plata de ley. En 1784 se impuso un nuevo impuesto y se represento con el busto del rey regente, se aplicó hasta 1890 y esto encaja con las marcas portuguesas ya que son de principios del XIX.
La segunda es la nitidez y detalle que tienen las marcas inglesas, no es lo normal, le mando un ejemplo:
.
Mi teoría es, que las piezas son portuguesas de principios del XIX. (con marcas legales, no pseudo - marcas). Por algún motivo fueron ensayadas en alguna oficina de Londres, para comprobar la legalidad de la plata y que al ser marcadas con ese solo fin, utilizaron punzones nuevos, (por eso esa nitidez y detalle).
Un saludo

[dognose]

The 'English marks' are not official hallmarks, they are most definitely pseudo marks.

Trev.

[coffee1st]

I have been able to find another source for Portuguese maker's marks. According to this document the maker of the sugar bowl whose mark is "CIMS" is Ciriilo Jose Maz da Silva (page 246, #79). I have also found other pieces online attributed to him that look similar. I am wondering if the document I found online is a respected source for hallmarks??? I am adding a link to it below. Any comments are appreciated.

Source document:
Subsídios Para A História Da Ourivesaria Portuguesa. Textos de Reynaldo dos Santos e Irene Quilhó
https://archive.org/details/SubsdiosPar ... Portuguesa

Here are other items that have his marks or are attributed to him:




Sadly I have to concur with Trev that while there are legitimate hallmarks on the pieces there are also pseudo marks. After a bit of research I am also concluding that the finials are probably not original as well. I love a good mystery though and have found this research vastly entertaining.

Thank you so much! This forum is amazing!

Karen

[AG2012]

What makes you think finials are not original ? There are 3 finials and they are exactly the same; what are odds to find 3 identical finials to replace missing one or two original finials ?