Reference for Louis-Jean-Baptiste Cheret Makers mark

[arni]

Hi,

I've recently aquired this lovely late 18th hundred century tureen. The Presentoir was made by Nicolas Fauconnier, 1787, Paris. The turren was made by Louis-Jean-Baptiste Cheret, 1789, Paris.



Fauconnier mark on Presentoir


Cheret mark on tureen (more marks on the stand and lid)


It is probably safe to say that the maker is correctly attirbuted to L-J-B Cheret as there are other tureens that share similar embelishments, forms and parts (e.g. (admin edit - see Posting Requirements )) which are mentioned and displayed in many publications about French Goldsmiths and attributed to him.

There is another object that was listed at Christie's last year where both goldsmiths worked together as well, that shows the same makers marks. However it was falsely attribute in the lot description to Louis Cartier, who didn't live at that time and registered only at 1847 with a different mark:
(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

To complete my documentation I'm looking for a reference where the makers mark of Louis-Jean-Baptiste Cheret is documented. As I only have access to E. Beuque (Dictionnaire des Poincons de maitres-orfèvres francais) where only his father Jean-Baptiste-Francoir Cheret as well as Nicolas Fauconnier are listed I wanted to ask if someone of the community with acces to Nocq, Arminjon and/or Markezana could check if the makers mark are listed there?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and Cheers
Alex

[arni]

As the links were edited out, I'd like to add the actual references from litrature:
The reference tureen in question is describe and displayed in

• "French Master Goldsmiths and SIlversmiths from the Seventeeth to Nineteenth Century"(The Connaissance des Arts Collection, French & Eurpean Publications Inc.) page 218 attributed to his father J-B-F Cheret,
• Sotheby's Sale "Collection de Madam Barbara Piasdecka Johnson" from 15th Ocotber 2003 in Pari, page 60-61 attributed to L-J-P Cheret.

[JayT]

Hello
LJB Chéret is listed in Nocq, v. I, p. 260. Neither Arminjon v. I nor Markezana would be of any help to you, as Arminjon lists marks of Paris makers registered after 1798, and Markezana lists no maker’s marks at all, but rather other marks on silver.
What info from the Nocq entry do you wish to know?
Regards

[arni]

Hi JayT,

thanks for that information and checking. I would be interested if the entry says what the symbol between his initals resembles. My guess would have been a bee nest but thats probably wrong. And if Nocq mentiones that he is indeed the son of JBF Cheret.

Cheers,
Alex

[JayT]

Hello

Nocq always describes the symbol as it was registered, not an appearance or a suggestion. He says that Louis-Jean-Baptiste Chéret was the son of Jean Baptiste François. He registered his mark on 3 May 1788: crowned fleur de lys, letters LC, a Pope’s crown (une tiare), and 2 pellets. Nocq doesn’t show a drawing of the mark, only a description. A Google search will give you pictures of Pope’s crowns. A bee would have been too pedestrian as a symbol for Chéret - LOL.
Chéret’s career continued after the Revolution. He registered his new mark 1798-99, erased 1811. His symbol for the new mark was a bouquet of roses. Chéret was succeeded by his son-in-law CNRH Houzet.

See Arminjon, V. I, no. 02277, p. 236; and no. 00791, p. 111.

Please note that both Nocq and Arminjon spell Chéret’s name with an accent on the first e.

Now some questions for you:
-The mark in a circular reserve appears very blurred on my monitor. Does it look like the charge mark for 1789?
-I don’t see a discharge mark. It should be an oak leaf in a circular reserve with a number.
-What do you think are the rectangular raised features on the base of the tureen at the 3 o’clock and 9 o’clock positions?
-Does the dark gray matter around the circumference on the left look like solder? If it is, this would indicate a repair or maybe even a drop-in. If it is solder, it isn’t 18th C soldering technique. There are members here with expertise in such technical matters who could advise.
-Do you think the gilding is original to the object? IMO it has been regilded.

Hope this helps.

Regards.

[arni]

Thanks JayT, really helpful information.
As for your questions:

- Yes, it is the charge mark for 1789, it is better photographable on the stand though:

- The discharge mark is located at the top edge of the tureen, the edge of the lid as well as the lower edge of the stand next to what I guess is the charge indicating multiple pieces. I haven't found charge, jurande or maker mark on the lid yet, only decharge.

- The two rectangular shapes are the lower ends of the handles that are connected to the tureen
- Hard to tell, it does look different than how the connection work looks at the lid and has a grayish color. Will need to clean it to be certain.
- The tureen itself, I don't think was regilded. The image is decieving as even on the better side through the reflection of the presentoir it looks like almost intact, which it isn't. Here is a better picture from the worse side where much of the gilding is already worn of.

As for the lid: it is in a almost perfect condition, so my guess is it has been regilded. The presentoir has lost some of it's gilding where the stand rubbed the surface and on the bottom as well, but still very good condition I would say, so might have been regilded as well.

Cheers,
Alex

[arni]

Just wanted to update that I found all three missing marks on the lid as well. They were hard to spot due to not being on a flat surface but on the back of the rosettes.

[JayT]

My pleasure to help.
Thanks for showing us this tureen. It is always useful to show all marks when posting.
Regards

[bijoux.expert]

If I can make a suggestion. If you want to clean antique silver gilt objects, the best way is to use Silver Dip. This will remove the tarnish without touching the layer of gold plating. It's an interesting fact that tarnish can appear on top of what seems to be intact gilding.

Another suggestion, forget about the Markezana book on hallmarks. Not only does it not do maker's marks, but the book is so full of mistakes, my copy hardly has a single page without corrections on it!

[JayT]

Oh no! I’d never recommend silver dip for vermeil or gilt silver, or any silver for that matter. The ammonia in these products eats away at the gilt finish.
A better solution would be a vinegar/water spray in the ratio of 1:3, rinse, then polish with a soft microfibre cloth.