Russian silver

[Wolfend]

Hi!

Who is the maker and what hallmark is this?

[Aguest]

:::: The 84 hallmark is also seen on Persian (Iran) silver as well as Armenian silver ::::

[Wolfend]

:::: The 84 hallmark is also seen on Persian (Iran) silver as well as Armenian silver ::::

Thanks.

Please send it links.

[Qrt.S]

...and sometimes on French silver plate. Anyway, the object is not of Russian origin.

[Wolfend]

...and sometimes on French silver plate. Anyway, the object is not of Russian origin.

Hi.
No French.
The makers mark exclusionary reason.

[Qrt.S]

????????
From 1860, to differentiate the "métal plaqué" from the "argenture par dépôt électrolytique", equivalent to British EPNS (Electro Plated Nickel Silver), were used square marks containing:
- the initials of the maker and the figure 84 indicating the quantity of silver

[Dad]

Hi.
This may have been a temporary mark of Poland after the occupation of the Kingdom of Poland in 1915 by Germany. Then the operation of the Assay Office in Warsaw was stopped. At this link you can read the message from blakstone (with all due respect).

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=16053&hilit=Sr+84#p36239

Not much to add here, as it appears to have been all sorted out: a Warsaw set assembled over the first quarter of the 20th century, by Adam Nagalski, and with the Russian “kokoshnik” marks of 1899-1908, Polish interim marks of 1915-1920, and Polish state marks of 1920-1931. I think I can tie up two loose ends, though.

First, there was no state-contolled assay in the new country of Poland until a law regarding the control of precious metals was passed on 16 Jul 1920. The interim marks used from 1915 until that time were applied by the manufacturer, and therefore vary from maker to maker. The “Sr. 84” mark (with the period under the lowercase “r”, a common way to indicate an abbreviation, in this case “Srebro” = “Silver”) was apparently unique to Nagalski. Here’s another example with another of his marks, spelled out in full, incuse:



Second, peursuant to the law of 16 Jul 1920, the first assay office in the new country of Poland was opened in Warsaw on 1 Sep 1920, with two more following in Lvov and Krakow on 1 Jan 1921. There were three finenesses established for silver: 1= .940, 2= .875 and 3= .800. The mark for these was the head of a peasant woman in left profile, facing the standard number and with the assay office mark (W = Warsaw; K = Krakow; L = Lvov, etc.) behind her head. There were two types of mark: one a truncated oval (as here) for large items, the other a proper oval for small items.



Polish marks were extensively revised in a decree of 31 Jul 1931, which became effective on 1 Jan 1932. There was thenceforth to be only one mark for silver of any size, and it was nearly identical to the small silver mark in use 1920-1931, i.e., an oval. Thus, as stated, this truncated mark must be before 1932, but it should in fact contain the assay office mark, which is clearly visible (if not entirely legible) in the original photos.

There was also a small, circular “peasant’s head” garniture mark, however, which did not contain either the standard number or assay office mark; a very similar mark was used for the same purpose in Russia/the USSR. This garniture mark, and the oval mark, remained in use in Poland through 1963.

Hope this clears things up!

Refs:
Ryszard Bobrow, Srebra Warszawskie 1851-1939, v. II (Warsaw: Muzeum Narodowe w Warszawie, 1997), pp. 31-32. (The source of the photos above.)
Michal Gradowski, Znaki Na Srebrze (Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN, 2001), pp. 249-252.
.

[Wolfend]

Hi.
This may have been a temporary mark of Poland after the occupation of the Kingdom of Poland in 1915 by Germany. Then the operation of the Assay Office in Warsaw was stopped. At this link you can read the message from blakstone (with all due respect).

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=16053&hilit=Sr+84#p36239

Not much to add here, as it appears to have been all sorted out: a Warsaw set assembled over the first quarter of the 20th century, by Adam Nagalski, and with the Russian “kokoshnik” marks of 1899-1908, Polish interim marks of 1915-1920, and Polish state marks of 1920-1931. I think I can tie up two loose ends, though.

First, there was no state-contolled assay in the new country of Poland until a law regarding the control of precious metals was passed on 16 Jul 1920. The interim marks used from 1915 until that time were applied by the manufacturer, and therefore vary from maker to maker. The “Sr. 84” mark (with the period under the lowercase “r”, a common way to indicate an abbreviation, in this case “Srebro” = “Silver”) was apparently unique to Nagalski. Here’s another example with another of his marks, spelled out in full, incuse:



Second, peursuant to the law of 16 Jul 1920, the first assay office in the new country of Poland was opened in Warsaw on 1 Sep 1920, with two more following in Lvov and Krakow on 1 Jan 1921. There were three finenesses established for silver: 1= .940, 2= .875 and 3= .800. The mark for these was the head of a peasant woman in left profile, facing the standard number and with the assay office mark (W = Warsaw; K = Krakow; L = Lvov, etc.) behind her head. There were two types of mark: one a truncated oval (as here) for large items, the other a proper oval for small items.



Polish marks were extensively revised in a decree of 31 Jul 1931, which became effective on 1 Jan 1932. There was thenceforth to be only one mark for silver of any size, and it was nearly identical to the small silver mark in use 1920-1931, i.e., an oval. Thus, as stated, this truncated mark must be before 1932, but it should in fact contain the assay office mark, which is clearly visible (if not entirely legible) in the original photos.

There was also a small, circular “peasant’s head” garniture mark, however, which did not contain either the standard number or assay office mark; a very similar mark was used for the same purpose in Russia/the USSR. This garniture mark, and the oval mark, remained in use in Poland through 1963.

Hope this clears things up!

Refs:
Ryszard Bobrow, Srebra Warszawskie 1851-1939, v. II (Warsaw: Muzeum Narodowe w Warszawie, 1997), pp. 31-32. (The source of the photos above.)
Michal Gradowski, Znaki Na Srebrze (Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN, 2001), pp. 249-252.
.

Dear ‘Dad’!

Thank you very much!
Best Regards.
Gábor

[Aguest]

:::: Is the maker of this piece Nagalski but the makers mark displays initials instead of a full name? ::::