fork&spoon

[84zolotnik]

Welcome members,
Does anyone know this hallmarks?


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[JayT]

Hello
You have the following hallmarks in use 1819-1838, both shown upside down:
-A silver standard mark for 800 silver of a head facing left in a barrel-shaped reserve with a border;
-A guarantee mark for the Provinces of a head facing left in an oval reserve with the number of the province to either side of the head. Your image appears unfocused on my monitor, but the number looks like 57 for the first division, North. If the image were in focus you’d be able to distinguish the place as either Lille, Valenciennes or Dunkerque by the number of asterisks seen in the mark, assuming the number is 57.

The mark in a lozenge-shaped reserve is not a hallmark, but a maker’s mark. Unfortunately I don’t know the maker. If you can find it, Les Orfèvres de Lille, v. 1 & v. 2 by Nicole Cartier might help you identify the maker.

Good luck in your ongoing research.

Regards.

See Tardy, pp. 193-196.

[Aguest]

:::: I have this spoon with maker's mark & minerva only without the additional mark. ::::
:::: I described it as "woman holding a basket over her head" a couple of years ago but now I cannot find my post. ::::
:::: I will keep looking & nobody responded to my post so I assumed the hallmark is absent from the hallmark research books. ::::

[Aguest]

:::: I have a bigorne hallmark on my spoon by this maker that seems to be from the bigorne system adopted in 1838. ::::
:::: Did the provincial guarantee mark completely end in 1838? ::::

[JayT]

@Aguest
After 1838 the guarantee and silver standard marks were combined into the Minerva head mark. If the item was made in the provinces, you’ll see a symbol, called un différent, under Minerva’s chin representing the mint where the item was stamped.
Hope this helps.

[Aguest]

:::: Yes I see the symbol on my spoon, it looks like a capital letter "I" :::: This is very helpful thank you. ::::

[Aguest]

:::: Hang on, I think I see the number "2" below the chin but next to the forehead there is a tiny letter I can't identify ::::
:::: I have to clean my spoon's hallmark, there is definitely old silver polish remaining ::::

[blakstone]

I think I can make out a pellet under and slightly right of the "5" of the guarantee mark, which would indicate the assay office in Valenciennes. Cartier's book only covers Lille through the 18th century; the only reference I know of for Lille post-revolutionary marks is Messaint & Pfister's Repertoire des Poincons du Nord.

This latter book lists (but does not illustrate) a mark registered in Valenciennes on 2 Oct 1820 by a maker with the surname Mailliot (again, no first name given) which is described as "M avec un cendrillon". I know of no other translation for "un cendrillon" but "a Cinderella", which does seem to fit.

Civil registers of Valenciennes, Nord department, reveal more:

Jean Mailliot
Born: 15 Dec 1788, Montauban, Tarn-et-Garonne, son of buttonmaker Antoine Joseph Mailliot & Jeanne Anglas
Married: 8 Aug 1816, Valenciennes, Nord, to Marie Joseph Mahye
Died: 16 Nov 1840, Valenciennes, Nord

There can be no doubt that this is the man whose mark is listed in Messaint & Pfister; he is quite literally the only man with that surname who married in Valenciennes between 1813 and 1822 and is listed as a "marchand orfevre" on that record. While Messaint & Pfister describe only the letter "M" in the mark, the initials "JM" do match, as does the device. So I am reasonably confident in attributing this mark to Jean Mailliot (1788-1840) of Valenciennes.

Hope this helps!

Ref: Guy Messaint & Christian Pfister Repertoire des Poincons du Nord au XIXeme Siecle (Dunkerque: Westhoek, 1980), p. 48

[Aguest]

::::: Thank you that is fantastic information. ::::
::::: I thought the image was of a woman doing chores, the object appears to be a basket over her head but that might be a "symbolic" representation of doing chores rather than an "actual chore" that she is doing :::::
::::: I was trying to locate the region with the bigorne mark on my spoon, but I wasn't sure if the different bigornes introduced in 1838 had been definitively linked to the various regions in France & perhaps the bigornes cannot be used in this manner, I am still not certain. :::::
::::: Since my spoon has the bigorne mark instead of the provincial hallmark, is it safe to assume my spoon was made between 1838 and 1840? ::::::

[blakstone]

It sounds like you’re describing the second standard (.800) Minerva mark, so yes, your piece was likely made between 1838 (when the mark was introduced) and 1840 (Mailliot’s death). However, it is possible that his mark was used after 1840 by his widow or some other successor.

Different bigornes were used in Paris and the provinces – in Paris the insects are depicted from the side, in the Provinces they are seen from above – but identical bigornes were used throughout all the provinces, so it is impossible to tell the region or departement from the bigorne mark alone.

Hope this helps!

[84zolotnik]

There is no Minerva mark on this object.

[Aguest]

:::: The mark I have is a Minerva mark for 800 silver from the hallmarking system established in 1838. ::::
:::: I previously posted a picture of these marks but got no response & now I cannot find the thread & even if I did find the thread the pictures are most likely gone. ::::

:::: My spoon is the spoon that has the Minerva, not the object shown. ::::: We both have silver objects by the same silversmith "JM". :

[84zolotnik]

Yours was probably made later, after the master's death.
His mark may have been used by his widow.